When Harry Met Sally (1989)

Matt (00:00:20):

Oh yeah, this is 1-Week Rental.

Laci (00:00:23):

Oh my God. Yeah.

Matt (00:00:24):

A movie podcast where we spend a week with a movie and we take you along on the journey as we go. My name is Matt Stokes. I am a film snob. Ew

Laci (00:00:33):

Boo. Get off

Matt (00:00:35):

The stage not to be so annoying about it with my little opinions

Laci (00:00:38):

And I’m his wife, Laci Roth. A nostalgia holic blossoming into something a little less pathetic. I’m trying.

Matt (00:00:47):

You’re doing a good job. Thanks. I think so. We dive deep into a different movie every week. We spend the week with it is what we’re saying. It becomes our life

Laci (00:00:56):

Partner,

Matt (00:00:56):

Our best friend. We research it, watch it multiple times, read interviews with the people who

Laci (00:01:01):

Made it. We’re practically a throuple at this point. We discuss the movie, we talk about what works, what doesn’t work, and psychoanalyze the characters, the people who made it. You get it

Matt (00:01:12):

And spoiler alert for every movie we talk about, we’re going to spoil everything we talk about. We assume that you don’t mind. You’ve already seen the movie, you just don’t care. And what we are spoiling this week is when Harry Met Sally. Full disclosure, Laci and I are absolutely gaga over this movie.

Laci (00:01:28):

I had nothing to say or add there, and yet I spoke anyway.

Matt (00:01:32):

Perfect. Two syllables and GA might be the best romantic comedy ever made, or at least like it’s in the conversation.

Laci (00:01:40):

Oh, well people are talking

Matt (00:01:41):

And this is a movie that I grew up with. It is my mom’s favorite movie, one of her two favorite movies, Moonstruck being the other. But I did watch When Harry Mens a lot growing up. It was probably a movie that was one of the early, like I’m a grownup for watching that movie and I laugh at this. Oh yes,

Laci (00:01:56):

There’s an orgasm in that movie.

Matt (00:01:58):

Oh no, I didn’t. I didn’t even understand what that was, but

Laci (00:02:01):

She’s hooting and hollering.

Matt (00:02:02):

My parents would laugh at the old couples telling their stories and I’d laugh too. So I don’t know, 10 or 15 times I’ve seen this movie. What about you, Laci?

Laci (00:02:10):

Same 10 or 15. Not because of my mom, because I love this movie. Love Billy Crystal. I love Meg Ryan just fine. But it’s really Billy Crystal’s my guy, one of my comic guys. So several of his movies would be movies I’d love to talk about.

Matt (00:02:28):

Yeah, so I mean in the parlance of our show, this is a true load bearing beam for both of us. Old name of art, which is one of the

Laci (00:02:35):

Podcast

Matt (00:02:35):

Important movies that holds up the foundation of who we are.

Laci (00:02:38):

Yes, we could talk about forget Paris anytime you want as well. Billy Crystal. Head over here.

Matt (00:02:42):

Okay,

Laci (00:02:42):

Crystal Meth Head.

Matt (00:02:44):

Alright, next week, tune in for Forget Paris. And now we’re going to move on to talk about the history of when Harry met.

(00:03:14):

So here we go with the history of when Harry met Sally. I mean two totemic figures in the world of movies and romantic comedies, movies more broadly. Rob Reiner and Nora Ephron are the two architects of this movie and I’m using here as my primary source. A book I’ve recommended on the show before from Hollywood with Love the Rise and Fall and Rise again of the Romantic comedy by Scott Melow, which has a lot of great information about a lot of classic rom-coms. So Nora Ephron and Rob Reiner, it will shock you if you watch these people’s movies to learn that they both come from wealth and privilege.

Laci (00:03:49):

No,

Matt (00:03:49):

Can you believe

Laci (00:03:50):

It? Everyone has giant apartments in New York. You earn them by going to college and then by moving to New York

Matt (00:03:55):

And then never ever doing any work they given

Laci (00:03:57):

To you. Everything’s a loft space and you have furniture for it and food.

Matt (00:04:01):

That’s what they give you at Ellis Island. Actually, when all those immigrants were going there, they’re like, what’s your name? Moskowitz. Okay, here’s your brownstone. So yeah, Rob Reiner, son of Hollywood royalty and Carl Reiner, who was El Brooks’ partner creator of the Dick Van Dyke Show, director of the Jerk and Nora Ephron, daughter of two Hollywood screenwriters. So the famous story goes that these two met up at the Russian tea room in Manhattan in the fall of 1984.

Laci (00:04:30):

Sounds fancy.

Matt (00:04:31):

Nora Ephron is 43 years old. Rob Reiner is 37 years old. They are both Hollywood muckety mucks, and when you are a muckety muck,

Laci (00:04:37):

You muckety muck in a Bucky Uck of fucks together.

Matt (00:04:40):

That’s right. See if you can make some magic happen.

Laci (00:04:42):

You fucking the muck Uck,

Matt (00:04:43):

Which is exactly what happened here, or as the legend goes, that’s what would happen here. Both had recently divorced very famous people. Rob Reiner divorced Penny Marshall Laverne.

Laci (00:04:55):

Yeah, I know

Matt (00:04:56):

Who she’s had a future director of Big in a League of their own Efron. Nora Efron had divorced Carl Bernstein

Laci (00:05:03):

Of the Bernsteins?

Matt (00:05:04):

No, the partner of Bob Woodward who uncovered the Watergate Gate

Laci (00:05:09):

Story. Good old cotton mouth. What is it? Something about a mouth. Deep throat. That’s it.

Matt (00:05:16):

Okay. Yeah.

Laci (00:05:17):

Cotton

Matt (00:05:17):

Mouth. So yeah, she’s dating one of the most famous journalists in America. She also apparently did an uncredited rewrite of all the president’s men, Rob Reiner’s coming off his run on all in the family playing meathead. He had just made his directorial debut with This is Spinal Tap and Nora Efron is deep into a career in journalism, feature writer for publications like New York Magazine and Esquire. She was Oscar nominated for writing the screenplay for the movie Silkwood the previous year, and she had just published a novel Heartburn, which was a semi-fictional account of her bad marriage to Carl Bernstein.

Laci (00:05:50):

So she’s more on the writing side. She’s a writer, not a director. Okay.

Matt (00:05:54):

Right. And heartburn. Have you ever seen this movie? It later gets made into a with Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep

Laci (00:05:59):

Playing same name. Heartburn.

Matt (00:06:00):

Heartburn,

Laci (00:06:00):

Yeah. No, I’ve never heard of that one

Matt (00:06:02):

Again, I can’t stress this enough. We love both of these people, but they are utter avatars for the ruling class. They are ghouls. In other words, the famous phrase that’s associated with Nora Efron is everything is copy.

Laci (00:06:16):

Oh, okay. Yeah, I’ve heard that

Matt (00:06:17):

She learned this from her screenwriter mother. It’s like anything you experience in your life, dear, it is grist for the mill. You can incorporate

Laci (00:06:23):

That, file that away. Well, she’s the original content creator. It’s the same exact way we feel about anything Interesting. That happens

Matt (00:06:29):

My love. That’s what I wrote in my notes. Yep.

Laci (00:06:31):

Well,

Matt (00:06:32):

Oh yeah. What’s the point of watching a movie these days if we can’t?

Laci (00:06:36):

I’m so glad you got the flu for 30 days. Let’s bring that up.

Matt (00:06:40):

Yeah, we got to figure out a way to monetize my flu.

Laci (00:06:43):

Yeah,

Matt (00:06:43):

So the lunch meeting though not as promising, doesn’t start off promising. Rob Reiner starts pitching ideas. Nora Efron’s not very into them, so she then just becomes a gabber. She’s just one of the great people to go to lunch with.

Laci (00:06:57):

Is there a list?

Matt (00:06:59):

She’s at the top of the list. I think

Laci (00:07:00):

Of a lady you love lunches.

Matt (00:07:02):

I’m going to read here from Hollywood with Love Again. Nora Efron is just making conversation now. It’s like, okay, this is not going to be a good business collab, but I’ll just talk. I’m one of the great gabbs, one of the great people to have lunch with.

Laci (00:07:15):

I love a Gabber.

Matt (00:07:16):

She just asks him, so what’s it like being a single man? He just recently divorced Penny Marshall and that turns into a great conversation. So the book says quote, the conversation stirred something in all of them. A month later, the trio met again. Reiner had an idea if the seemingly tiny, but all important differences between men and women were so stimulating to all three of them. Why not write a movie about that? I know that the movie presents itself like it’s about men are like this and women are like this, but that’s not how I read it these days. I think that Billy Crystal’s character has very firm ideas about what men are like and what women are like, and I think that he’s wrong about them. I’m not just saying he’s wrong. I think that the movie thinks he’s wrong about them.

Laci (00:08:03):

I think the way that we’re allowed to talk about relationships and heartbreak after we break up is maybe open and free. We’ll just take it where you want on the women’s side because of the way that we’re socialized and then for men, maybe there’s only so much you can get out of a conversation with a guy, not because men and women are different, but because they’re brought up different. So if Rob Reiner’s constantly trying to bounce his heartbreak off of Billy Crystal and Billy Crystal can only go so far. Maybe a conversation with Nora Efron might seem like a real eyeopener. None of them realizing we were all just raised different guys. We could have came to these same conclusions without each other.

Matt (00:08:44):

Okay. So yes, I’m not saying that obviously men, there are differences between men and women.

Laci (00:08:49):

Sure.

Matt (00:08:50):

I myself have always found it easier to talk to women than talk to men, or at least to be vulnerable with women. I’ve had platonic women friends and you and I started as every relationship I’ve had. We’ve started as friends and I do find it easier to talk about emotional stuff with women than with men. I think that when it’s like men want this out of a relationship and women want this, I see the movie directly contradicting him

Laci (00:09:14):

And I don’t even see, that’s interesting. I don’t see the movie saying that at all, I guess. Yeah. Where is Billy Crystal pointing out something that he needs in a woman?

Matt (00:09:26):

The every man wants to go home immediately after he is done having sex with a wife. He a woman, he doesn’t want to cuddle, but what do we see later in the movie? Bruno Kirby is the one cuddling Carrie Fisher.

Laci (00:09:37):

Right?

Matt (00:09:38):

It’s like you are universalizing your very own neurotic personality

Laci (00:09:42):

And he’s a very closed off, very pessimistic person. That’s part of his whole thing that that’s why he talks so fast when those fast talking neurotics. But clearly he’s just not connecting with women that he wants to actually spit. Cuddling means something and we don’t know anything else about Billy Crystal’s character is that he’s very down with the casual sex, even if it’s misleading for the lady, he just took on a date. So cuddling just means I wanted a second date to him. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t want it. He just doesn’t want the second date. He doesn’t want to signal anything. He probably likes cuddling just fine.

Matt (00:10:20):

You think he cuddles with Sally after this movie?

Laci (00:10:23):

Maybe, but I’m, what I’m wondering is did he cuddle with Helen and I think that he did because she was clearly the dominant one in that relationship, the one that broke his heart.

(00:10:33):

They don’t ever show any, and I appreciate this about the movie. They show you zero interaction with him in that stage of his life, but except for when he was talking about getting married. But yeah, he seems kind of like a kid, kind of like, yeah, I’m getting married, so I cuddle mama. Yeah. What he’s trying to say is I really, really like casual sex. I like to have sex with almost any woman I meet. Even the ones I don’t find attractive. I have a strong sex drive. So yeah, I don’t cuddle because I’m not trying to give them the wrong impression. Well, the wrong impression, my good sir was when you decided to have sex with them after a bad date.

Matt (00:11:12):

But again, he’s universalizing all of this. Well, this is what all men are like.

Laci (00:11:16):

He’s excusing it

Matt (00:11:17):

And because he’s Billy Crystal and because Harry Burns is like a charming guy, you’re like that guy’s, right?

Laci (00:11:22):

Yeah. And he says go to bed with, he doesn’t say fuck, he just make love. He doesn’t I always go to bed with, he doesn’t say boink, he

Matt (00:11:27):

Went to bed with,

Laci (00:11:28):

He doesn’t have a little black book. He just goes on dates and just either you zing or you don’t zing, but you definitely ba boom. You know what I mean? It’s a different time.

Matt (00:11:38):

I can’t wait to talk about the movie proper. So many things, like the term friends with benefits didn’t exist. Would that have changed anything? Because the whole thing is if you have sex with your platonic friend, you can’t be friends anymore. And it’s like, I’m sure you can,

Laci (00:11:54):

Right? Yeah. No, Sally just very much wasn’t a person that would do that. Yeah,

Matt (00:11:59):

But I think even these two could have gotten over it. He’s just being obnoxious about it.

Laci (00:12:04):

I think she ended up having feelings for him after the sex. She saw him in a different way and Sally’s way of thinking about Harry is changing all the time. I mean, you see it on their faces. So Sally definitely thought of Harry as a platonic friend for a very long time.

Matt (00:12:23):

I don’t necessarily

Laci (00:12:24):

Agree.

Matt (00:12:25):

Well, we’ll talk about that when we talk about the movie itself.

Laci (00:12:28):

Sorry, sorry. This is about the history. Yeah. Get back on track.

Matt (00:12:31):

The whole thing is like, oh, well they’re always in love with each other the entire time.

Laci (00:12:35):

Fine, but I don’t want to say that she’s ever more into him than he is to her because it feels very equal.

Matt (00:12:39):

No, no, no. It does feel equal. I think him being the more obnoxious and neurotic one. Okay. Okay. We’ll keep going. Rob Reiner the late great Rob Reiner. We’re not going to go too much into the details of everything that happened to him and being tragically murdered alongside his wife, his wife who had a role to play in when Harry met Sally. But just to situate you in who he was and where he was in his career and where he went after that. We said he is the son of Carl Reiner got his start, grew up in the world of comedy, was a successful sitcom. Star transitioned into directing in 1984, directed This is Spinal Tap in which he also acts, he plays the director of the fake documentary and I love him as an actor. He’s in Sleepless in Seattle, which in an acting role, no Efron directed that, but he’s so funny.

Speaker 3 (00:13:35):

I

Matt (00:13:35):

Didn’t know that as Tom Hanks’ friend and the best role I think he ever played by far Leonardo DiCaprio’s father in the Wolf of Wall Street. Do you remember the scene where he’s just screaming at his wife because he missed somebody called him and he missed some of the television show they were watching and he’s screaming and the second he picks up the phone, he just switches over into Nice guy. It’s so good, so wonderful. So this is Spinal Tap, a big acclaimed hit next year. He makes the Sure Thing with John Cusack. I love that movie. I love that movie. That was a big movie for me like in college.

Laci (00:14:10):

Oh,

Matt (00:14:10):

Dan by me after that, a huge movie for Laci.

Speaker 3 (00:14:13):

Yes,

Matt (00:14:14):

The Princess Bride after that. Then when Harry met Sally, when he died a few months ago, everybody’s looking at his career and they’re like, this is a miracle run he has of movies to start his career after when Harry Metzel is Misery.

Laci (00:14:26):

Misery. Wow. So diverse too.

Matt (00:14:28):

Yeah. Second Stephen King adaptation. I think he was Stephen King’s favorite director and he named Rob Reiner named his production company Castle Rock Entertainment After the Town from Stand By Me and so many other Stephen King stories and they went on to be the production company behind Seinfeld. So that probably made him more money than anything. A few Good Men. So that’s the Miracle Run seven movies.

Laci (00:14:51):

Got it.

Matt (00:14:52):

Then there’s that movie North with

Laci (00:14:54):

Ahead of it

Matt (00:14:56):

With Frodo Baggins, what is his name?

Laci (00:14:59):

Bimbo. Bobbins.

Matt (00:15:00):

Why can’t I think of a,

Laci (00:15:02):

Do you now have to list dyslexia? Jesus, we’re fucked. We’re so

Matt (00:15:06):

Fucked. Elijah Wood, the young Elijah Wood,

Laci (00:15:09):

That’s not Bimbo Bobbins.

Matt (00:15:10):

He’s Frodo Baggins, right? Different. The American president. You ever saw that?

Laci (00:15:13):

Yes. I like it. And I really loved Annette bending in that because it showed that girls with short hair can be beautiful. I loved my short hair Queens back in the day. I like that movie.

Matt (00:15:24):

Never seen it, but based on the poster, I agree after this, it’s a little ghost of Mississippi. The story of us, Alex and Emma,

Laci (00:15:31):

The story of us is too sad. Alex and Emma remember liking, but there’s been a very long time. Rumor has it. I like it. I always liked Romcom. I’ll tell you that. The bucket list. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen, I think I’ve been forced to see

Matt (00:15:41):

Laci. We have an episode of the podcast about it.

Laci (00:15:43):

Yes. I was

Matt (00:15:44):

Weighed, was

Laci (00:15:45):

Forced to watch the I remember now

Matt (00:15:47):

Remember a very old episode of our podcast. Our friend Wade was a guest and he’s like, we’re watching the Bucket List folks. And I kind of liked the bucket list

Laci (00:15:54):

And I felt,

Matt (00:15:56):

I think you kind of liked it too.

Laci (00:15:57):

I kind of liked it.

Matt (00:15:59):

And then a lot of movies have never heard of Flipped eight, the Magic of Bell Aisle. And so it goes being Charlie, which was co-written with his son Nick,

Laci (00:16:07):

About, I mean I’ve never heard of any of these. This is crazy. Is Aid a horror movie? It looks like it is

Matt (00:16:14):

Being Charlie co-written with Nick Reiner, the troubled Son based on his own life.

Laci (00:16:19):

Stop it.

Matt (00:16:20):

Yeah,

Laci (00:16:20):

We won’t be watching that

Matt (00:16:22):

LBJ. Shock and Awe and then just last year came back, made Spinal Tap two.

Laci (00:16:28):

Did that get good reviews?

Matt (00:16:30):

I don’t think so, but it was nice that they’re all doing their thing together Again. Nora Efron, Nora Efron, romcom Royalty. I think Nora and Nancy Myers, the twin death stars of American romantic

Laci (00:16:44):

Comedies. She looks a lot like Sigourney Weaver doesn’t. She

Matt (00:16:48):

Really does or no, it’s not. She’s more romantic comedies.

Laci (00:16:54):

She writes from a woman’s perspective very well.

Matt (00:16:56):

Maybe that’s it. Maybe that’s what I mean to

Laci (00:16:58):

Say. A woman’s voice.

Matt (00:16:59):

A woman who makes movies. Yes. Yeah, movies from one thing. A woman’s point of view.

Laci (00:17:06):

Trust me, I’ve tried to break into this movie fucking Crowd and it ain’t easy. Everyone stopped being mean to me. Okay.

Matt (00:17:14):

I found it to be a very welcoming and hospitable place,

Laci (00:17:16):

But due to your penis.

Matt (00:17:17):

So her philosophy about rom-coms romantic comedy is a genre, is basically the taming of the true and pride and prejudice, both of which are about either character or class as obstacles to love. So when Harry Metally, it’s very much not about class, it’s about character though. These characters are too fucked up to realize they just need to be together.

Laci (00:17:37):

Fuck. There’s been different places in their life could call ’em fucked up.

Matt (00:17:40):

Well, they are. I mean, he’s a political consultant and she writes for New York Mag. They’re fucked up weirdos. They’re not fucked up weirdos. You have to be to do that for a living. Come

Laci (00:17:47):

On. They do not lean into that at all. They don’t make that at all part of his personality. He’s just supposed to be quirky.

Matt (00:17:53):

No, they say it so that you know that

Laci (00:17:55):

They are equally quirky and it’s all about finding someone who finds you funny, who you can laugh with. That’s why the pecan pie scene is so important, the one that drives you insane. It is a lemons test for, am I supposed to be with Meg Ryan? Answer? Yes.

Matt (00:18:08):

I found that scene so charming this time. I don’t know what the hell I was talking about when I said I don’t like when he says Peak gang pie

Laci (00:18:14):

Because you think you’re supposed to laugh and the point is it makes her laugh.

Matt (00:18:17):

But I did laugh. Yeah, I’ve never liked Billy Crystal as much as you, but I’d give him a fucking Oscar for this. But both of them, her an Oscar, she’s definitely better than Jessica Tandy from driving Miss Daisy. I think Daniel Day Lewis won that year, so probably not Billy Crystal, but he’s great. I love him so much in this

Laci (00:18:35):

Movie. Matt knows the year every movie won a thing. So if you don’t know what he was just doing, it was calculations of Oscars.

Matt (00:18:42):

We already spoke about Nora Aron’s journalism and writing career after. When Harry met Sally, she wrote My Blue Heaven starring Steve Martin. Rick and Joan Q. Is that a movie of yours, Laci?

Laci (00:18:52):

No, it’s a lot of people’s movie though. It probably has a death in it.

Matt (00:18:56):

Well, it was directed by Herbert Ross who directed Steel Magnolia

Laci (00:18:58):

Death in it.

Matt (00:19:00):

I’ve never seen it, but you always like people think I should like that movie, but

Laci (00:19:03):

It’s, and I do. I do, but it is too sad and I can’t go all the way to the end and doesn’t redeem itself like the very end of Titanic. I’m sorry. I also can’t watch Beaches. I just can’t do it. I’m sure it’s great. Tell Louise, get out of here.

Matt (00:19:17):

Here’s why Nora Aron rules. Here’s what she said about that movie. It was completely destroyed by Herbert Ross destroyed, and I looked at it and I thought, well, I could have done just a terrible job as he did. She’s talking about the director of that movie. She would insult people. That’s awesome.

Laci (00:19:31):

She’s no her fucking effron. You saw her smoke a cigarette. She didn’t give a shit.

Matt (00:19:35):

That’s why. Look, I don’t agree with Quentin Tarantino about the actors he’s talking shit about, but I do think it’s fun when people in Hollywood talk shit about each other. It’s fun.

Laci (00:19:43):

Yeah. I mean if people in the sports get to do

Matt (00:19:47):

It

Laci (00:19:48):

Much people in politics get to do it much.

Matt (00:19:49):

Yeah, we need more trash talk.

Laci (00:19:51):

Roofers probably do it

Matt (00:19:53):

Because of the success of when Harry met Sally and I think because she received so much credit, deservedly so. I think

Speaker 3 (00:19:58):

Good, good, good.

Matt (00:19:59):

They did a good job of making it known She is as important a part of the movie as are Crystal and Ryan and Ryer. So she got to parlay that into moving over to directing. She said, or this is from Hollywood with Love quote. She had already taken a lesson from her experience as a Hollywood screenwriter. If you want to make movies without compromise, you also need to direct them. The director is constantly trying to screw the writer out of the things that mean the most. She said there is the pretense that there is a collaboration, but the truth is the director has all the power and you have none.

Laci (00:20:30):

I’m with you. I’m fucking with you.

Matt (00:20:31):

So she moved. You

Laci (00:20:32):

Hear that Kubrick? No, wait, shit, I’m on the wrong side of that.

Matt (00:20:36):

Whose side? What?

Laci (00:20:37):

I think Cooper did understand what Stephen King was trying to do. I just think Stephen King didn’t see the vision. Sorry, I’m going back to The Shining here. I was just saying Yeah, yeah. Writers. But then I just realized, wait, I was on the other side of that argument. Cool tangent.

Matt (00:20:53):

Well, I mean, yeah, if you want to actually make your vision come true, you got to direct. So she moved over into directing, this is My Life with her directorial debut, co-wrote it with her sister Delia Efron Stars, Julie Cerner, AKA March Simpson and Carrie Fisher. It is a great movie, but not many people have seen it.

Laci (00:21:09):

I’ve never seen it.

Matt (00:21:10):

Then Sleepless in Seattle,

Laci (00:21:11):

Which I did not see for a very long time. I’ve only seen it one time. I remember liking it fine.

Matt (00:21:16):

I’ve watched it many times. I have never liked it.

Laci (00:21:18):

I just remembered being very moody and slow. I don’t know. Whatever it was, I didn’t watch it again. So

Matt (00:21:26):

It is interesting to say the thing that makes romantic comedy special is just two actors you get to see on screen and these two people were standing next to each other and talking and feeding back into each other and it’s exhilarating to see It’s why when Harry Met Sally is so great,

Laci (00:21:41):

Except for when you got mail, which totally works for me. It’s fucking awesome. But I guess well

Matt (00:21:45):

Hold on, but Sleepless in Seattle has the hook. Okay. What if they don’t meet each other until the final scene of the

Laci (00:21:51):

Movie?

Matt (00:21:52):

And here’s the thing, but it’s not that interesting.

Laci (00:21:54):

Not that.

Matt (00:21:55):

Yeah,

Laci (00:21:55):

It’s like when McCulley Culkin’s doing voice acting. No, thank you

Matt (00:21:59):

Kind of. Yeah, that’s That’s a good

Laci (00:22:01):

Call. You’re detaching the charisma from the brain. Don’t do that. He’s a face man.

Matt (00:22:08):

Yeah, his

Laci (00:22:09):

Face.

Matt (00:22:10):

Yeah. When I’m seeing him in the page Master as a cartoon, I’m just, I’m

Laci (00:22:13):

All I see is the page. Am I right?

Matt (00:22:15):

So Sleep in Seattle’s an enormous hit mixed nuts in 94 with Steve

Laci (00:22:21):

Martin. I remember that being funny.

Matt (00:22:23):

Michael starring John Travolta as an angel was an enormous hit.

Laci (00:22:26):

It was.

Matt (00:22:27):

Yeah.

Laci (00:22:27):

I feel so cringey when I even think about it and I don’t even, I think I’ve seen it one time. I just remember his wings coming out and going,

Matt (00:22:35):

Ew. And

Laci (00:22:36):

For some reason I mixed it. That one with powder, I don’t know why

Matt (00:22:39):

You’ve got mail in 1998 was an enormous hit.

Laci (00:22:41):

Did Powder come out in the same year as Michael?

Matt (00:22:43):

I don’t know what powder is. That’s I You don’t know the movie Powder? That’s why I moved on. Yeah, I didn’t want you to. Okay.

Laci (00:22:48):

Powder’s like a big, because it’s so weird.

Matt (00:22:51):

Powder 1995, Sean Patrick Flannery and Jeff Gold Bloom. So Laci wants to fuck the movie Mary Steen Bergen.

Laci (00:22:57):

Is that the boy that can’t go outside?

Matt (00:22:59):

Jeremy Powder Reed is a young albino man who has incredible intellect and is able to sense the thoughts of the people around him.

Laci (00:23:06):

So that, and Michael, I swear they came out the same year and I was like, what is this powder? Michael Powder

Matt (00:23:10):

Came out one year before Michael. You’ve got Mail in 90 eight’s an enormous hit. She’s making enormous movies.

Laci (00:23:17):

Yes.

Matt (00:23:17):

Hanging up. She didn’t direct that. I forgot that She and her sister wrote it. Diane Keaton directed it.

Laci (00:23:22):

I love that movie.

Matt (00:23:23):

And then it’s kind of all Lucky Numbers is a flop. Bewitched is an insane movie. It’s

Laci (00:23:29):

An insane movie

Matt (00:23:31):

Where

Laci (00:23:32):

It’s an insane flop.

Matt (00:23:33):

Well, it was a flop, but it’s also a bizarre movie. Like the premise of that movie is they’re making a remake of the Bewitched TV show.

Laci (00:23:40):

It seems pretty straightforward.

Matt (00:23:41):

And they hire a real witch who they don’t know is a real witch. Who Nicole Kidman, who is herself, the person who inspired indirectly the original Be Witch TV show. Yes, it is so crazy.

Laci (00:23:54):

Why not just fucking remake

Matt (00:23:55):

It? Why Indeed

Laci (00:23:57):

They were capitalizing on Practical Magic because she was an actual witch in that movie.

Matt (00:24:02):

That was like 10 years earlier,

Laci (00:24:03):

But it’s one of her most, I mean people who love that movie. Love that movie. You’re going to do two witch movies.

Matt (00:24:10):

That’s right. There’s a practical magic two coming out this year. I

Laci (00:24:13):

Cannot wait.

Matt (00:24:14):

And then finally Julia and Julia in 2009. So that’s Nora Efron. She died at age 73 and 2012. So that’s the dream team who wrote this movie, made this movie.

Laci (00:24:24):

She looks like Harry Fisher in this photo you have of them two working together.

Matt (00:24:27):

Yeah, she does quote from the book again, practically everything in When Harry Met Sally, which arrived in theaters five years later, sprang from Efron’s ability to draw and then use the raw messy material from other people’s lives. She interviewed us like a journalist, got all these thoughts down and that became the basis for Harry and she became the basis for Sally Recalls Reiner, the movie Chronicles, 12 years of an ever evolving relationship between Harry Burns, a charmingly al Chatterbox and Sally Albright, a bright romantic optimist. Efron had originally imagined Harry Albright, a neurotic gentile meeting. Sally Burns an upbeat Jewish woman, Efron, who called the writing sessions for when Harry met Sally. As much fun as I’ve ever had, fondly recalled how she and Reiner fought bitterly about everything with her taking Sally’s side and Reiner taking Harry’s side. Why is

Laci (00:25:17):

So true to life?

Matt (00:25:19):

And when Laci and I were preparing for this episode, discussing the movie, we started having fights. Men do this, Laci, you’re wrong. And women do this.

Laci (00:25:27):

Okay, can I do the most boring thing ever? I think this movie does a pretty good job of letting you see. They use the same actor the whole time. That’s tricky because you’ve got to show 12 years of growth. They use it. They mainly do tricks with hair and costume or whatever, and then of course they do things with fashion and so Sally is always super on trend. She has to be to even notice a three year jump. She has to be the thing people were wearing. And so the very last scene is them sitting in the interview spot. I just wanted to let you know that Nora is wearing the exact outfit that Sally wears in that interview basically saying, I need Sally to look the hips.

Matt (00:26:07):

Yeah.

Laci (00:26:07):

Can you just put on this? Or

Matt (00:26:10):

It’s her taking Sally’s side and Reiner taking Harry’s side in their debates about what men and women don’t understand about each other. Often Efron ended up working the substance of those debates directly into her script. But who would play the leads?

Laci (00:26:24):

Well, they already knew. Oh, for the other three important people.

Matt (00:26:29):

No, they don’t know who’s going to play Harry and who’s going to play Sally. They didn’t.

Laci (00:26:32):

No. What’s Billy Crystal even doing there then?

Matt (00:26:35):

Well, Billy Crystal was a very close friend of Rob Ryder.

Laci (00:26:38):

I mean, I know there’s no way he wasn’t just at lunch being like, sounds like me. Weird.

Matt (00:26:44):

But not everybody knows this.

Laci (00:26:46):

Oh, sorry. I know because you told me 30 minutes ago

Matt (00:26:48):

He had been cast in 1975 to play Al Bender meatheads best friend on all in the family, and then they ended up becoming best friends in real life. That’s cute. You play best friends and then you become best friends.

Speaker 3 (00:26:57):

I love it.

Matt (00:26:58):

Billy Crystal said they were inseparable after Rob Reiner’s divorce from Penny,

Laci (00:27:03):

Say

Matt (00:27:03):

Divorce from Penny Marshall. So Rob is Harry and Billy is Jess. He’s the Bruno Kirby character. Rob Reiner said that he worried about potentially hurting their very close friendship by casting him.

Laci (00:27:18):

Yeah, I mean look at Bill Murray and

Matt (00:27:21):

Harold Ramis.

Laci (00:27:22):

Yeah. And they had to be in the same circles as each other, right?

Matt (00:27:25):

Oh yeah.

Laci (00:27:25):

Comedy writers.

Matt (00:27:28):

But then now it’s a thing like, okay, so you’re deliberately not casting me away. Thanks so much buddy. Not letting me get a job that I know I could do.

Laci (00:27:35):

Billy Crystal was fine.

Matt (00:27:37):

So they met with Richard Dreyfus, Michael Keaton, Tom Hanks, Richard

Laci (00:27:41):

Dreyfus, Meow

Matt (00:27:43):

Kind of old. Well, he might be the same age as Billy Crystal. I don’t know. Billy Crystal said, I knew from agents and managers that he had met with almost every male actor my age except me. I was not happy about that. But what else could I do?

Laci (00:27:57):

Got to be a fast-paced talker. You just, I don’t know. To me what sells the and the shortness, right? There’s something not menacing or at all. You can’t be looming height wise or body size wise over the woman for it to always feel friendship and safe. And there’s something about that that he’s so pocket sized. I

Matt (00:28:24):

Never pick up on heights when I’m watching movies, but doing the research, I learned, oh, he’s an inch shorter than Meg Ryan and what you just said just kind of crystallized it like, oh, that crystallized it. That might be a component of their friendship and their romance. And one of the things about this movie is it’s all kind of luck and timing and stuff that’s totally beyond our control. Oh, he’s shorter than you, so you kind of view him a little differently.

Laci (00:28:47):

Yeah, like a brother. Just he’s not, you don’t immediately go, oh, what a hunk. Although I find him very cute.

Matt (00:28:57):

Yeah, Laci is a way hotter person than I am, but because she was divorced and had a baby, she’s dating. I’m

Laci (00:29:04):

On sale baby

Matt (00:29:05):

Down. Yeah, she’s in the bargain baby.

Laci (00:29:06):

I’ve been downsized. Wait, I’m up upset.

Matt (00:29:10):

Jane Jenkins was the casting director for the movie. She said it took all these false starts before Reiner had the perspective to see that Crystal was indeed the only actor who could play Harry exactly as Reiner saw him.

Speaker 3 (00:29:21):

Right?

Matt (00:29:22):

A note perfect cinematic riff on himself as channeled through a friend who knew him better than anyone. Rob finally said, why am I doing this? This is silly. Let’s go to Billy.

Laci (00:29:32):

They Harry and Sallied each other.

Matt (00:29:34):

They did.

Laci (00:29:34):

Why were they fighting it? It was right there.

Matt (00:29:36):

You’re right. They were, Billy Crystal was 40 years old at the time of production, already an established star standup, SNL, host and cast member in movies like Running Scared. So he’s the established star. Early into filming, crystal sat down with Reer for a gentle ultimatum. This movie was so personal to him. I’d been starting to feel a little restricted. Billy Crystal said, I didn’t want to play Rob. I wanted to be Harry. I told him he needed to move out of Harry so I could move in.

Speaker 3 (00:30:05):

When

Matt (00:30:05):

Harry met Sally may have started life as a goodnatured battle of the sexist style debate between Aron and Reiner. But once it became a movie, crystal felt like it was his job to play Harry as a genuine character with his own tics and idiosyncrasies and ark and not just as a Reiner surrogate. Reiner understood and agreed to make room for Crystal to play Harry the way Crystal understood him, right down to the very Billy Crystal bursts of improv that led to scenes where he rambles about pecan pie in a goofy voice.

Laci (00:30:30):

What about when he is call me? Don’t be afraid to just phone wall.

Matt (00:30:36):

I don’t know. I did find out that Nora Efron does not allow improv. She does not like actors deviating from her written. That’s my precious words. But yeah, this does have some improv from Billy Crystal.

Laci (00:30:46):

Crystal should have sat down with her and said, your crystal needs to make fron andron make room

Matt (00:30:52):

For your actors. Just improv.

Laci (00:30:54):

Don’t be afraid to just, this is the problem

Matt (00:30:58):

With him improv.

Laci (00:30:59):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get it.

Matt (00:31:01):

But who would play Sally who indeed Meg Ryan did it. She was,

Laci (00:31:07):

He just remembered her from her not being the right person for the last thing that he, the two projects before.

Matt (00:31:14):

Here’s what happened. She was 28 years old at the time of production. She had been a soap opera star on as the world turns

Laci (00:31:19):

Shut the fuck up

Matt (00:31:20):

In the early eighties.

Laci (00:31:21):

No,

Matt (00:31:21):

A huge soap opera star sort of unexpected

Speaker 3 (00:31:25):

Eyes.

Matt (00:31:25):

She didn’t expect to be an actor. I kind of believe lots of actors say that, but she actually seems like the kind of person for whom that is true.

Laci (00:31:35):

She’s just a handyman and they’re like, come do some line reads,

Matt (00:31:39):

Harrison Ford. Hey, you get down from that ladder and start working on as the world turns. And she’s like working on a soap opera is what taught her to act because you have to do work so fast and produce so much as a soap opera actor that that’s sort of where she got her sea legs under her played Goose’s wife in Top Gun in 19 86, 87. She had promised land and was also in Innerspace opposite Martin Short and her future husband Dennis Quake, but she’s not an unknown, but she’s not a star.

Laci (00:32:09):

Right? This movie makes her a star.

Matt (00:32:11):

Yes, quote. As it turns out, Reiner had been circling Meg Ryan to play the female lead in something for years. When Ryan was just 18. Jane Jenkins brought her in to read for the female lead and Reiner’s romcom, the SHO thing. Rob said, she’s actually terrific this kid, but I don’t think she’s right. Jenkins are called. Two years later we were doing the Princess Bride and Meg came in and Rob said, I love this girl, but she’s not buttercup. If Bill Goldman had written that Buttercup should be the most adorable girl in the world, I would hire her now, but I still think we could find the most beautiful girl in the world. As Reiner saw it, the most adorable girl in the world was exactly what he needed. For Sally, whose quirks need to be so consistently endearing that by the climax of the movie when Harry tells her that he loves, loves that it takes her an hour and a half to order a sandwich. The audience nods along in agreement, Ryan, everyone agreed was perfect. And in a Hollywood worthy twist that had massive reverberations for the future of the entire rom-com genre, Ryan had to vacate her role in the dramedy steel magnolias to star in. When Harry met

Laci (00:33:12):

Sally. Wow.

Matt (00:33:14):

The role was recast with

Laci (00:33:15):

Julia Roberts. Julia Roberts. That really did change the I always be like, good thing, good thing. I always feel that way. But yeah,

Matt (00:33:24):

End quote. And what sucks for Meg Ryan is unlike Julia Roberts and Sandra Bullock, if they’re like the Holy Trinity of the golden era of romcom women that the other two got to audiences, accepted them like getting to do their Oscar roles and never seemed to do it for Meg Ryan.

Laci (00:33:46):

Did she try?

Matt (00:33:46):

She tried. There was a Jane Campion sexy thriller in the cut and she’s very good in it. But even my reaction the whole time was like, this is Meg Ryan. Come on.

Laci (00:33:57):

Well, and she looks just like Ms. Debbie, which is a surrogate mother of mine.

Matt (00:34:01):

She

Laci (00:34:01):

Just fucking like her.

Matt (00:34:04):

All the focus groups were saying that at the

Laci (00:34:05):

Time. That’s the problem.

Matt (00:34:08):

She moved into directing, so she has been directing stuff. But yeah, it just sucks. This is an incredible performance. They’re both great. I think it’s impossible to do what she does in this movie. Every day at the end of shooting, Ryan and Crystal would retire to their respective homes and then talk on the phone about how the day’s activities went

Speaker 3 (00:34:29):

To

Matt (00:34:29):

Try to, if we build some chemistry offscreen, build that kind of friendship, it will translate onscreen. Okay. But the question, are they going to end up together in the movie? If this movie’s posing big questions about can men and women be friends? Can you date your friend? Are you destined? What’s more important? Romance or friendship? So the movie is so indebted to Woody Allen and they were even acknowledging that at the time and specifically to Annie Hall, which ends that movie ends with the characters not together, but they find a peace in the fact that they can be friends. And also this is not a failure. We will always have our time together as a beautiful thing that impacted both of us. I read a quote from the movie’s, music director, mark Shaman. He was worried about using, it had to be you as the main song from the movie because Dan Keaton in Annie Hall sings, it had to be You

(00:35:23):

When we first meet her. Alright. All right. Efron’s first draft ended with Harry and Sally splitting up, which took Reiner’s close association with Harry to his logical conclusion, at least in part because Reiner nearing 40 had written off his romantic prospects after a near decade of Singledom following his divorce from Penny Marshall. He felt that when Harry met Sally should end with a wistful shot of Harry and Sally bumping into each other on the street with their intense friendship years behind them and saying goodbye. I just had them walking in opposite directions at the end, recalled Reiner, and then I met the woman who became my wife during the making of the movie and I changed

Laci (00:36:01):

Everything. Thank God. Yes. What fucking bummer.

Matt (00:36:05):

In a truly meta a twist that only helps to solidify when Harry met Sally’s claim is the most romantic romcom of all time. Reiner met Michelle Singer, his wife of 30 years while shooting a scene for when Harry met Sally at one of those iconic New York brownstones, he’d already been warned by cinematographer Barry Sonnenfeld that the love of his life was on the horizon. I was bemoaning my lack of woman fate. Reiner says, and he says to me, I know this girl. Her name is Michelle Singer, and you are going to marry her.

Laci (00:36:32):

Oh Jesus.

Matt (00:36:33):

And I said, what are you nuts? When Singer later visited the set with Seinfeld’s wife, Susan, Ringo Reiner was so instantly smitten. He tagged along on their lunch date. Reiner and Singer were married before when Harry met Sally even hit theater.

Laci (00:36:44):

Oh my God.

Matt (00:36:46):

So rest in peace. Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer Reiner, she inspired him to change the ending. And it is interesting to think of the movie’s legacy. If the movie had ended like that, what do you think? It’s so easy to see what that would look like.

Laci (00:37:04):

Yeah, of course. And I’m trying to think of a movie I can compare it to, and it’s a movie that makes me feel a little more grounded but also kind of empty and I can’t think of an example. It just

Matt (00:37:17):

That

Laci (00:37:18):

There’s plenty that are like that and they’re not movies I watch over and over again

Matt (00:37:24):

Before The Troubles, I would’ve said Woody Allen is my favorite filmmaker and Annie Hall is my favorite movie. I haven’t watched it in almost a decade, but I did watch it all the time and I loved its look at romance and when Harry Metally has a very similar, similarly great at depicting the little moments that make up romance, the awkwardness, the laughter, just like walking and hanging out places. And I always loved its ending and I loved that they didn’t end up together, but the point of that story was they helped each other grow. But when Harry met Sally, I don’t know what, I don’t know. I can’t imagine them not ending up together.

Laci (00:38:11):

They’re too perfect,

Matt (00:38:12):

But people who are perfect for each other often don’t end up together. So I just said a lot of nothing.

Laci (00:38:19):

Yeah, you did. Wait, I do need to ask, because there’s so much chemistry between Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal. Were they both in relationships at the time of this movie or did they continue their friendship? You said that they made sure to call each other and stuff.

Matt (00:38:33):

2023 people’s Billy Crystal and is when Harry met Sally CoStar, Meg Ryan we’re still a couple to everybody. We were thrown together, chosen to be this couple, and you never know, almost 30 years later, we’re still a couple to everybody. As you get further along a new generation, see the movie and feel it and watch it over and over again on Valentine’s Day, on New Year’s Eve, whatever it is

Laci (00:38:55):

Told you, it’s a New Year’s Eve movie.

Matt (00:38:57):

People fall in love every day and people fall out of love every day. The movie isn’t evergreen that way. It’s a beautiful thing. Well, it’s not answering our question,

Laci (00:39:05):

What I just said. The movie’s just as much about falling out of love as it is, as it is falling in.

Matt (00:39:10):

I would get they’re professional colleagues. I don’t know. They had a great time together. Didn’t have. I’m

Laci (00:39:14):

Begging you, Jesus,

Matt (00:39:16):

Because you were so upset.

Laci (00:39:17):

You read one article and it didn’t give you what you wanted. You’re like, Laci, get off my back.

Matt (00:39:21):

No, what I’m saying is if they had actually remained best friends, there would be tons of articles about it.

Laci (00:39:26):

Yeah. Like Bev and Chev.

Matt (00:39:30):

Remember how you said you were losing sleep because you were depressed at learning that Patrick Swayze and Jennifer Gray were not friends in real life after Dirty Dancing?

Laci (00:39:40):

God, no. I hate to remember that. That bothers me.

Matt (00:39:44):

And because I said on our podcast, I’m like, they’re not going to stay together. You know that Johnny and Baby, they’re not good for each

Laci (00:39:49):

Other, but I know that.

Matt (00:39:50):

Okay.

Laci (00:39:51):

I know that. I know Jack needs to die. Rose needs to float on.

Matt (00:39:55):

Oh yeah. She really does.

Laci (00:39:56):

And she did.

Matt (00:39:57):

Do we have anything else? When Harry Mets Alley, one of the great romantic comedies of all,

Laci (00:40:01):

Listen to our fuller discussion words, probably really smart and Matt knows how to say words and that’s this Friday,

Matt (00:40:07):

Wherever,

Laci (00:40:07):

Which is the day you’re watching this. So

Matt (00:40:10):

Wherever you get your podcasts

Laci (00:40:12):

On your phone

Matt (00:40:13):

And happy Valentine’s Day to all the lovers out there

Laci (00:40:16):

And Groundhogs Day, if you love hedgehogs, beavers land whistles, land whistles, pig vomit, pig whistler. I stopped myself from doing it and you clap and did it.

Matt (00:41:10):

The movie opens with some very classy font on a black screen and white font, just like Woody Allen always did his movies. It’s just there’s so many Woody Allen comps that I think they’re deliberately doing, or maybe they’re not deliberately doing. I don’t know.

Laci (00:41:26):

Do you think they’re paying homage? Yeah. Okay. So they’re deliberately doing it in a nice way.

Matt (00:41:33):

I guess they’re inviting the comparison though, which is kind of bold.

Laci (00:41:38):

What is bold? And they fucking, and I think they did give us a modern day. I think Woody Allen doesn’t get the girl because he’s inherently creepy. He just is the mouth sounds with the kissing and everything. Before I knew he did anything weird, he was weird. He just made you live in his mouth. Like fucking being John’s mouth kovi. Those women didn’t seem to have much of a say except for Annie, the way he treats the young girlfriend. It’s just so fucked up. The 17-year-old who’s still in high school, they is dating. Is

Matt (00:42:10):

That, well, it’s not okay to do that. You

Laci (00:42:12):

Shouldn’t. No, I don’t mean that. I mean the way he treats her,

Matt (00:42:15):

He does treat her very badly. Yeah, yeah. Does not let her have any agency. The movie ends with her taking agency and he’s floored by it and then realizes,

Laci (00:42:24):

Oh,

Matt (00:42:24):

I haven’t seen it in years. Okay. Yeah, I guess I have to.

Laci (00:42:26):

Okay, so well, there you go. But I guess I think this movie thinks of itself as a modern day. We can still have this classy New York men and women. This is a continuation of the conversation, hence the ellipses

Matt (00:42:41):

And it’s like modern day, but it’s only, and we think of them as different era, but this is 10 years later. This is just 10 years after.

Laci (00:42:47):

But The Vance, I mean, I do think this movie’s making a point of Sally having agency in a way that 10 years before that wasn’t really what they showed with women, but

Matt (00:42:57):

I push back on, I think the women in Woody Allen movies always have agency are often the strongest characters in the movies. I

Laci (00:43:04):

Feel like he’s always the person breaking up.

Matt (00:43:07):

No, Annie

Laci (00:43:07):

Hall mouth kissing.

Matt (00:43:08):

Annie Hall breaks up with him and then Diane Keaton in Manhattan breaks up with him, even though he never really liked her. She was just a rebound.

Laci (00:43:16):

I don’t want to listen to this anymore. Anyway, I took this as them saying, this is our interpretation of this. And then 10 years from now, someone else take the Yeah,

Matt (00:43:25):

Yeah, that’s a good point. But also Woody Allen movies is the Great American songbook. These. Harry and Sally presumably grew up in the late seventies, in the early eighties. Do they like Depeche mode? Do they like tears for fears? No, they like Irving Berlin and George Gershwin and Oklahoma. Oh yeah.

Laci (00:43:43):

Well that’s funny to sing and you don’t have to pay for it. It’s probably Creative Commons.

Matt (00:43:48):

No, Oklahoma’s not.

Laci (00:43:50):

It’s probably cheaper than whatever shit you were talking over there. Also, it’s karaoke stuff. Karaoke I feel like was such a new technology. It was all old music. I don’t know. I feel like they weren’t quite up on the hits for the karaoke machine yet,

Matt (00:44:06):

So it had to be you opening credits. Do we have anything more to say about the opening credits?

Laci (00:44:12):

This is fucking insane that we’re still talking.

Matt (00:44:14):

I have so much to say about everything in this movie, so I’m sorry if that’s annoying to people. I remember timestamps in the episode description. I’ll find you. This movie looks incredible. It was shot by Barry Denfeld, who was the Cohen Brothers dp, and later went on to be a director of the Adams Family Movies and Men in Black and Wild, wild West. I just think we think of this movie as having an iconic script and it has one of the best scripts of all time,

Laci (00:44:40):

But the juxtaposition of where he puts people, the wide shots, the movie’s, not just in New York. He uses New York and you always know what season it is. I’ve always found this movie very, that’s why I said I couldn’t take my eyes off of it. They are magnetic, but so is the scenery.

Matt (00:45:00):

It’d be a good movie to teach in a high school film class to be like, when you start thinking seriously about movies, you probably start with the writing and this would be a good movie to say, alright, let’s push what else is going on with what you’re seeing on screen and how does that inform how you feel about it?

Laci (00:45:15):

Right. It’s like they’re at once making the city feel really big. But the point is that no city’s big enough to not run into your old problems. That’s why in a city of 8 million people, of course you’re going to run into your ex when you’re singing Hurry with the French on top or whatever Harry says about running into that exact moment, singing with Ira. With Ira,

Matt (00:45:36):

But how romantic everything looks and how that can either be invigorating or so depressing and cruel.

Laci (00:45:43):

Yeah, totally. But New York is huge and intimidating, and when Billy Crystal is running, he can’t get a cab, and so he runs the rest of the way to the fucking New Year’s Eve party. In real life, that’s probably like 20 blocks, but they have a good way of making it seem easy to get to each other when she’s crying in the middle of the night because of Joe. And she says, come over and he just doesn’t, no one’s got a fucking car. Who knows how he got there.

Matt (00:46:07):

Well, Seinfeld, this is a New York story written by people who actually haven’t have lived in LA for the past 30 years.

Laci (00:46:15):

That makes sense.

Matt (00:46:15):

So what do you not see that is the most important fact of life in New York City?

Laci (00:46:20):

Elevators.

Matt (00:46:21):

The subway.

Laci (00:46:22):

Sure. Yeah, the subway. But the subway is like a class thing, right? Nope,

Matt (00:46:26):

Not so much.

Laci (00:46:27):

But when you haven’t lived there, I feel like when you see the subway, you think, oh, people can’t afford a cab on the upper world. I feel like subways are where they have you go whenever something’s going to go awry or to show someone’s really long journey how hard of a worker they are.

Matt (00:46:43):

Yeah, I guess it’s just funny that it’s not once ever mentioned. It’s just you’ll never get a cab. That’s the only way you can get anywhere.

Laci (00:46:50):

Right? Right. The folks on the upper level, and I also might be basing that feeling of from Shameless, which is Chicago, the Tube being a very class thing, the L, that’s it. What’s the tube? Is that in London?

Matt (00:47:04):

That’s in London. So the first of the interviews, not to derail us again, but in the reality of the movie, what are these interviews?

Laci (00:47:12):

That’s what I was saying. I don’t know if they’re supposed to be a look at how things have changed, but the thing that I kept noticing, except for in one that I can think of, the man is talking the whole time, and if the woman’s talking a lot, that’s the joke. But when the man’s talking a lot, that’s just normal

Matt (00:47:31):

And

Laci (00:47:31):

She’s just kind of nodding along and the story is always interesting, but also really abrupt. Really. What an interesting way. We used to court, meaning hardly at all. It was such small checklist for who am I going to marry? The guy just really has to ask, we’re all just sitting around waiting back then.

Matt (00:47:58):

But presumably, let’s say that in the reality of this movie, I don’t know. They’re like, Hey, we want to interview really happy couples and you tell us your story.

Laci (00:48:06):

Yeah. No, I don’t think that. I think they’re trying to say that these people are from another time and their story isn’t necessarily romantic and they don’t look necessarily in love, but they are really, really proud of the longevity of their relationship. That’s the thing that’s always emphasized 55 years and it’s like that’s the pride. They didn’t get the opportunity to divorce that wasn’t even on the table, so they might as well be just proud of themselves for making it out. The other side. I didn’t want to kill myself,

Matt (00:48:34):

But this is why I think it’s an important question to ask because if it was, we just want to talk to happy couples telling their stories, then you can view the movie as like Harry and Sally made it way more complicated than it needed to be because hey, you see that girl over there in the car, I’m going to marry that girl. And then we got married and we’re best friends and we’ve been married forever.

Laci (00:48:52):

Maybe. I almost feel like the movie did this before, really knowing how to use it. Just I think that Rob Reiner in general uses interesting techniques and little mockumentary things everywhere, and this was just his way of, I mean, it was smart. It really did chop up a movie in a nice way. It gives you a little break and it’s funny and cute and these are some of the things I can quote or these parts of it.

Matt (00:49:18):

They’re perfect, they’re wonderful. And you could even say, I don’t know what the movie’s necessarily saying, but you cannot take these out of the movie. They are so important to the movie. It wouldn’t be the same. It would lose the texture that it has. The Princess Bride is broken up with the framing story of Fred Savage and his grandpa, so it’s like

Laci (00:49:43):

One of the only times a framing device is fucking good,

Matt (00:49:46):

But it’s like you just brought up his mockumentary stuff and you’re ready. I guess he’s not, at least at this part of his career, it’s like, no, I don’t want to just tell a straightforward story. I want to,

Laci (00:49:55):

He’s got mix it up a little well, and he’s just got, this movie is full of cool shots, the side by sides, the cut screen. There’s three or four where I’m like, this is making me feel this story in a much, I’m feeling casual about this rather than how it can be ominous to switch from one person talking on the phone into the scene of another person talking on the phone, or just from one side, not the other. This movie has shot in a way that makes Harry and Sally look like complete equals the entire time, right down to the poster of them standing 20 feet apart or

Matt (00:50:30):

Whatever. I’m not going to talk about every one of these interviews, but the first one we see is the woman doesn’t talk at all. The man’s like, I saw this girl. I said to my friend, I’m going to marry that girl. And 50 years later, we’re still married. The woman doesn’t say anything. She just squeezes the guy’s arm. My grandfather had stories like this about his wife and was Wistfully talking about this, and then everybody would be like, yeah, but she hated him.

Laci (00:50:55):

But he would also say she hated him. He

Matt (00:50:57):

Would acknowledge that, but he was very wistful and romantic about it. Yeah, but she hated your guts. Daddy.

Laci (00:51:04):

Oh, oh daddy. The wrong adult died.

Matt (00:51:10):

Alright. We’re at the University of Chicago in 1977. Now listen, the Ivy League’s definitely the most evil, higher learning in the United States, but University of Chicago is very close behind. That just educates the most evil people who are just the authors of our destruction.

Laci (00:51:26):

Okay.

Matt (00:51:26):

Okay.

Laci (00:51:27):

Obama,

Matt (00:51:28):

Is this

Laci (00:51:29):

An Obama

Matt (00:51:29):

School? He taught at the university of No, but no, he went to Yale or no, he went to

Laci (00:51:33):

Harvard. Bless him.

Matt (00:51:34):

One of those two.

Laci (00:51:35):

Okay.

Matt (00:51:35):

This is like if you’re a blue blood, where are

Laci (00:51:37):

You getting it?

Matt (00:51:38):

If you are a blue blood, you go to the Ivy Leagues. If you’re upper middle class driver, you go to University of Chicago to learn how to work for the Ivy Leaguers and destroy the world on their behalf,

Speaker 3 (00:51:48):

Which

Matt (00:51:48):

Is what Meg and what Harry and Sally are doing here at the University of Chicago. The movie never says that, but it’s all just, it’s there. It, you’re looking for it. Billy Crystal. I mean, it’s so great that if this movie were made today, they’d hire different actors or de-age them. And the movie’s not trying that hard.

Laci (00:52:07):

She’s

Matt (00:52:07):

Like, just accept it. Just

Laci (00:52:08):

Give him bangs.

Matt (00:52:09):

Yeah,

Laci (00:52:09):

Just put the bangs over his forehead. It’ll cover up the wrinkles dress him funny. I mean, that’s why I said they have to have exactly that moment’s fashion to make this work.

Matt (00:52:21):

I wanted to ask you, I don’t understand fashion, but when you look at a movie like this and you can tell the movies, the movie’s being I guess broad about it, look how much looks changed in five years. Fashion changed from 84 to 89. If you went back in time right now, five years, you would notice different things, right? Would

Laci (00:52:42):

I would you would not and I don’t think this movie’s trying to make a statement about fashion. I think they’re just doing practical things to make it seem like time has passed.

Matt (00:52:52):

No, I agree. I’m just asking is it true that fashion was just more noticeable back then is easier to see big changes and big changes don’t happen anymore or do they?

Laci (00:53:03):

No, they do. For instance, my side of my head would be shaved. Matt, you’d notice that, right?

Matt (00:53:10):

Five years ago. That was like a 10 year ago thing. You should do that again. He’s smooching his girlfriend. Does the kissing bother you

Laci (00:53:18):

Here? Yes. The kissing bothers me and every time it happens in this fucking movie, including what happens between them,

Matt (00:53:24):

I love you. I love you. I love you more. They’re so into each other and the camera swoops around them in one unbroken shot as Meg Ryan drives into their lives,

Laci (00:53:32):

But you can tell he’s not as into her. That’s obvious. I

Matt (00:53:36):

Don’t know.

Laci (00:53:37):

Well, I can. Okay. I love you more. He’s definitely just, but he doesn’t take him long. All he does is get in the car. He’s a realist. He knows this is not going to be a long distance relationship. He just doesn’t want to break up with her. It’s easier to do it over the phone. Let him drift apart.

Matt (00:53:51):

Yes, we’ve graduated college. I’m moving to New York. You’re staying in Chicago. We’ll still be dating though. Totally, but yeah, you know that this is over. Meg Ryan is Sally drives into the frame, honks the horn, and they’re going to be driving together even though they don’t know each other, the seventies and Hey, you’re driving. I’ll ride with you. Share the load. It was just a more social time. This would not happen today.

Laci (00:54:16):

Well, they’re both best friends. I mean, she’s best friends with his girlfriend and she happens to know two people very well that are both going to New York and need to go at the same time. I guess that makes sense. I’m sure this is a thing. I feel like in the early aughts there were road trip movies that people that don’t know each other in the car together. You know what? Who knows? They’re college kids. Imagine the price of a U-Haul and they’re driving from a place where they need a car to where they don’t,

Matt (00:54:45):

It’s a symptom of a thing. I noticed throughout the movie of the way the world has changed for the worse. I don’t know how people meet each other anymore. There were just more opportunities to randomly have, oh, I bonded with this stranger via a long road trip. Even if they drove in a car together, now one would have AirPods in the other would be on their phone the whole time, their phone, the whole time

Laci (00:55:07):

It be sick. But see you, you’re projecting. I make friends with every Uber driver I get in the car of

Matt (00:55:13):

Yes you do, but you are exceptional. You are wonderfully.

Laci (00:55:16):

Yeah, but I’m saying Matt even here wouldn’t have done what Harry does here.

Matt (00:55:19):

Yeah, because I wouldn’t have had the AirPods.

Laci (00:55:22):

You wouldn’t have made friends either.

Matt (00:55:25):

There would’ve been, when the world makes it easier to facilitate sociality and meetings, it means that the mats, people of the world have more opportunities, which means they will make more friends by just pure physics.

Laci (00:55:38):

Just don’t wear your AirPods anymore.

Matt (00:55:40):

That’s not an option. Where could I even, I don’t go anywhere or see anyone ever, so it’s not even a choice. You are so suspicious of this claim I am making about the world.

Laci (00:55:53):

No, no, I’m not. Not at all. I just don’t think you would’ve been any more social in this universe either.

Matt (00:56:00):

What I am saying is I wouldn’t be inclined to be more social, but the world would force me to meet more people and that would mean I would know more people and that would be better for me. Explain to me what she’s doing to be so type A and I’ve planned out everything. We are going to drive this number of miles then,

Laci (00:56:19):

So she’s always right as like a Tracy Flick flick flick or the lady from Parks and Rec or something. Type A and type B are no longer a thing anyone is that. It’s one of those junk science things, but she reads as neuro divergent to me now. I just thinks of the way I like them, the way her food can only touch like this and only do. It definitely signals somebody that’s privileged who can make all these requests, but her requests are almost so specific. They’re not snooty. They’re like, she’s disabled.

Matt (00:56:55):

She’s a medical issue.

Laci (00:56:57):

She just knows she needs all these things separate or she won’t eat them. It’ll be icky. She’s nervously writing in her checkbook, doing the math. She just seems like somebody that has a lot of rules and wants to follow the rules and doesn’t like someone around her introducing a new rule that she doesn’t believe in because she likes things more black and white. She’s a more black and white person and he just seems to be an overthinker. They both overthink in their own,

Matt (00:57:25):

But that is why he is good for her because he just asks very, very broad questions to her and she was always like, tell you my life story. Well, I guess I don’t have anything to say because I haven’t done anything with my life

Speaker 3 (00:57:38):

Because

Matt (00:57:39):

His lack of subtlety is actually exactly what she needs to shake her out of. Whatever she shell she has,

Laci (00:57:46):

She needs a direct person to push her. Absolutely.

Matt (00:57:50):

She’s going to New York to be a journalist, so you can tell other people’s stories. The thing. Come on, you have a dark side. I think about death all the time. So

Laci (00:57:59):

Dark

Matt (00:58:00):

And she accurately says, that doesn’t make you deep or interesting.

Laci (00:58:05):

It just makes you a fucking bummer.

Matt (00:58:06):

I mean, it makes you like a 21-year-old, right?

Laci (00:58:09):

It makes you emo.

Matt (00:58:09):

I read Nietzche this year, this last semester, but she says, I think about death all the time, which means when the shit comes down, I’m going to you be ready for it. And she says, in the meantime, you’re going to make yourself miserable waiting for it, which is the story of the movie that we see

Laci (00:58:25):

And he wasn’t even ready for it. The shit came down when Helen broke up with him, didn’t see it coming and he wasn’t ready for it.

Matt (00:58:30):

That’s true.

Laci (00:58:30):

There’s no actually preparing and you don’t know how anything’s going to make you feel.

Matt (00:58:34):

Well, but he does say, I knew this to, I knew this was going to happen. I felt all along and it’s like none of this is helping you at all.

Laci (00:58:41):

Right, and it could have been a self-fulfilling prophecy. You might not have been a great partner as you mope around searching for the affection. You’re not sure is there That sounds exhausting. Yeah, they call it sounds like I’d be looking for an ira.

Matt (00:58:54):

They have the debate about Casablanca. Who does Ingrid Bergman actually want to end up with at the end of the movie with Bogart or with Victor Laszlow and Billy Crystal’s, like she wants to stay with Humphrey Bogart because she had the best sex of her life with her, which I don’t get that from watching the movie. I mean obviously Bogart over Paul Andre, but I do like that they revisit this movie at different parts of their life and it means different things to them

Laci (00:59:18):

And then they don’t even remember thinking the thing that they thought before.

Matt (00:59:21):

That’s another thing I love is, but you said five years ago this thing and you’re like, I did. I have had that with people who

Speaker 3 (00:59:29):

Will

Matt (00:59:29):

Say to me, Matt, you told me that it’s a big deal that blank. And then I’ll be like, oh, well that was stupid. I shouldn’t have said that.

Laci (00:59:35):

I mean, I have that experience listening to my opinions of things that we recorded five years ago. I’m like, what the fuck was I thinking?

Matt (00:59:43):

Yeah, absolutely.

Laci (00:59:43):

It’s amazing how little has to happen to change or maybe just a ton happens every year

Matt (00:59:50):

And

Laci (00:59:50):

I’m not even noticing

Matt (00:59:52):

And he’s like, you know what? You’re only saying this because you’ve never had great sex, so I’ve had plenty of gut sex.

Laci (00:59:57):

There’s no way. There’s no fucking way any 21 year ever. It takes a marriage and years of practice to have phenomenal sex.

Matt (01:00:06):

That’s what I wrote in my notes too, that yeah, nobody at 21 years old has had great sex,

Laci (01:00:10):

Especially people with one night stands and stuff like, no, you need to learn the body. Maybe you had a good time, but mind blowing sex, it takes time.

Matt (01:00:22):

Right? You’re going to be doing the movie high Fidelity. So I’ve been rereading the book for the first time in 20 years and it talks about that how the sex part of a one night stand is really unsatisfying and uncomfortable. Yeah, of course not. You don’t know each other. You don’t know what tore doing to each other,

Laci (01:00:38):

Right? Yes. What if their butt’s too high up? That’s happened to me before. Someone takes their clothes off and then they’re misshape. I mean, having a high butt’s fine just means you got long legs, but when you don’t expect it,

Matt (01:00:50):

You’re looking for it. You’re feeling around in

Laci (01:00:52):

The dark. There’s your badge, your butt. Your butt was too soon to me to my hand.

Matt (01:00:58):

So they go to the

Laci (01:00:59):

Restaurant, got the high butt,

Matt (01:01:00):

They go to the restaurant and she does her order, her high maintenance order, her very specific order. Today we’d call her a Karen.

Laci (01:01:08):

No, we would not. She’s not a Karen until she’s making a problem. If she’s being a pain in the ass, that’s different.

Matt (01:01:16):

I think that that’s

Laci (01:01:17):

A, Kathy,

Matt (01:01:17):

I remember 10 years ago reading articles. This movie created a tidal wave of negative stereotypes about difficult women.

Laci (01:01:26):

She’s not difficult,

Matt (01:01:28):

But that’s just what you had to write at the time. What I see now, the problem is you said she’s classist. Yeah, or she seems privileged. She’s just not treating service workers that great, which is a bad thing.

Laci (01:01:41):

She’s not, but no one in the movie does. So that’s because there’s the four people date at one point, and I don’t remember if a waiter comes to the table, but no one in this movie acknowledges any of the waiters and to me that seems really odd, but I think maybe in New York you just spend a lot of time in restaurants, so they’re trying to just make it

Matt (01:02:00):

No, this movie was written by the elite of the elite

Laci (01:02:04):

Who don’t talk to the people who serve them. I guess So I don’t know. I don’t think it’s saying anything about Sally, but I think her little high up socks in this first shot, and I think she’s not a person that’s been told no a lot. She’s not spoiled, but she does feel entitled to having things exactly as she wants them and doesn’t think of it as an inconvenience to someone who’s making not even minimum wage,

Matt (01:02:27):

Which yeah, she says, I just want things the way I like them.

Laci (01:02:30):

Well, they come a certain way and that’s to help with efficiency in the kitchen. You fucking can,

Matt (01:02:35):

But it’s just like, hey, it just slow down a little bit. Give the waitress some time to write it down and then be like, and thanks so much. I know it’s a lot to

Laci (01:02:43):

Ask. Right, right. No, you’re absolutely

Matt (01:02:46):

Right. And then most importantly of all, when you’re 15% tip, because all these fucks in the seventies were like, that’s a good tip is 15%. That’s what

Laci (01:02:54):

I was taught.

Matt (01:02:54):

You got to

Laci (01:02:55):

Is not what I came now, but you double the tax plus some whatever.

Matt (01:03:01):

But it’s also she’s 21 years old, she’s a baby. She doesn’t know how to be in the world yet when she’s in her main age in the movie, she is not as finicky, I don’t think, or at least we don’t see an opportunity to show her doing that. We’ve already seen those jokes, but I remember hearing this podcast with Sean Clements from Hollywood Handbook talking about his wife who always has finicky orders at restaurants, and he said something like, I go through my life terrified that people will hate me, so I do my best to accommodate them, but they still hate me. My wife meanwhile asks for exactly what she wants and everyone loves her. Like, yeah, it’s very easy for me to customize your sandwich. Oh, thanks so much. Great. So now she’s happy with what she’s gotten and they’re happy with her. So it’s like the Sally way to live is the way to live. Just be a little nicer about it. She explains the underwear of the days of the week thing. I think it’s the funniest line in the entire movie because of God. Because of God.

Speaker 4 (01:04:00):

Well, if you must know, it was because he was very jealous and I had these days of the week underpants.

Speaker 5 (01:04:05):

I’m sorry, I need a judge’s ruling on this days of the week Underpants.

Speaker 4 (01:04:09):

Yes. They had the days of the week on them and I thought they were sort of funny. And then one day Sheldon says to me, you never wear Sunday. It’s all suspicious. Where was Sunday? Where had I left Sunday? And I told him and he didn’t believe me.

Speaker 5 (01:04:23):

What

Speaker 4 (01:04:25):

They don’t make Sunday,

Matt (01:04:27):

Why

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):

Not because of God.

Matt (01:04:30):

She’s saying that the underwear says the day on it.

Laci (01:04:33):

Every girl that grew up around this time, woman have bought these. I had them. I don’t remember if they had a Sunday. Yeah, it’s just days of the week underpants. You don’t even need to wear them on the exact day. But apparently this boyfriend noticed that Sunday was missing, so he thought it couldn’t be that you had your period on these underwear that they need to be thrown away. These are at a man’s house.

Matt (01:04:55):

The way he reacts, the way that she delivers because of God and the way He seems like a remnant from an earlier draft of the movie where him being Jewish and her being a gentile was a bigger part of it than it is.

Laci (01:05:10):

I think it’s also just serving to make her seem more buttoned up and less sexual.

Matt (01:05:15):

I agree,

(01:05:16):

But it’s also he’s like, I haven’t heard somebody say, God in 20 years, you’re a very attractive person. A Amanda never said how attractive you are. This all leads to the like a man and a woman can’t be friends because of the sex thing. Every male friend, every woman who has ever had a male friend, that’s only because he wanted to fuck her. And she’s like, no, that’s not true. And he is like, it totally is. We want to fuck all women. That’s the only reason we’re friends with them. She says, well, it’s too bad. That means we can’t be friends and you’re the only person I know in New York.

Laci (01:05:47):

We all already know Matt doesn’t feel this way. Lots of lady friends.

Matt (01:05:51):

What about you?

Laci (01:05:53):

It is tricky, right, because am I calling or texting people when I’m sad or whatever and I need to talk something through that is super rare. I don’t think I talk anything through with anyone but you and a couple of female friends that I have women friends, so although I definitely consider men friends that I know there’s a limit to their usefulness and to what I will do with them, I wouldn’t just go over to their house or just meet them for lunch. It’s always kind of loaded. It always looks a certain way to people. So there’s not a lack of, there’s a social border, so there’s a intimate one too. A depth of friendship border

Matt (01:06:39):

Though that is also impacted by where we live, how we work. If we’ve worked in a more social setting and you just are having more interactions with people, more going to lunches with people, more opportunities to just see somebody not because we have to set something up.

Laci (01:06:56):

I mean, when I want to talk to somebody about something that’s bothering me, I text or call. So the in-person thing isn’t neither here nor there. I guess if I had work friends and I were in a physical place for work, I’d be complaining and talk about work stuff, but I’ve certain, yeah, I don’t think you could work in an office and not consider that you have male friends. Otherwise, what are they?

Matt (01:07:19):

Can a man be friends with a woman and doesn’t want to fuck her?

Laci (01:07:23):

I don’t think you’ve been friends with a woman you didn’t want to fuck or wouldn’t have fucked if they wanted to.

Matt (01:07:28):

Those are two different things.

Laci (01:07:29):

I don’t think he’s saying that he’s friends with this woman because he wants to fuck her. I’m saying that it’ll never be like a man in a man’s friendship because he will always be down to fuck that person. That adds this element of me in a way where I can’t be completely vulnerable because what if I fuck up my opportunity to fuck you later by saying something weird

Matt (01:07:50):

Five years later? Oh, it was preceded by the old couple who said that they were high school sweethearts and then they moved away, saw each other again 34 years later, we’re like, Hey, it’s you. Which is kind of a win Harry and Sally thing, although on a much larger scale, but we’re at the airport now. Again, it’s five years later this time we drop in on Sally kissing somebody.

Laci (01:08:09):

It’s her turn

Matt (01:08:10):

Passionately

Laci (01:08:10):

Republic. They’re equals and a little twist of Rooney he walks by, we think it’s for Sally. Nope. It’s because he knows Joe,

Matt (01:08:18):

Joe

Laci (01:08:19):

And he does not place her at first even with the full name being given to him and she doesn’t want him to place her. And she seems completely infa with Joe. In fact, before she gets on the plane, he tells her he loves her for the first time. I don’t know, he seemed boring to me, so I’d be pleased as Pete, no pleased as a plum. If Billy Crystal switched spots and came sat next to me on a flight and all that room on those chairs, God, that looks like a comfortable fucking flight.

Matt (01:08:51):

And I guess this is just what it was in the eighties. You graduated from college and five years later you were a very successful career person, dressed like a businessman in your fifties. She’s like, yeah, I write for New York Magazine. Oh, I do some political consulting. I’m 26 years old. Yeah, she is though in ecstatic joy just beaming at nothing because Joe told her he loves her. That’s

Laci (01:09:13):

What it’s like when you’re in a relationship and someone tells you, I love you for the first time and it comes out of nowhere. That is totally normal.

Matt (01:09:19):

I’m not saying it’s not normal. And then Billy Crystal’s like, Hey, I remember you, and then just butts in and sits next door.

Laci (01:09:27):

So she thinks he’s going to sit there and come onto her or whatever she thinks she knows exactly who he is and he surprises her by saying, I’m getting married. And he’s like, he couldn’t be happier, and she laughs her ass off. It’s just not the idea of him that she had in her mind all these years and people grow, people change. He’s different now. She’s different now. She’s got the upper hand a little bit more here. I feel like he’s got the upper hand in the first interaction. She’s got it in the second and then they’re equals by the time they are third and together.

Matt (01:10:01):

Yeah, he’s getting married to a woman named Helen. I wrote Hilton, that’s not it, Helen Hilton. She’s a lawyer. She’s keeping her name and then they’re leaving the airport and he’s like, will you have dinner with me? And she’s like, but you said that a man and a woman can’t be friends. Like I said that. She’s like, yeah, you said that you made a big deal about it. It’s kind of all I think about for the past five years. And he’s like, Hmm. Oh yeah. Well, that was true, but I have made an addendum. I’ve made an amendment to my earlier ruling. We’re both in relationships, so it’s okay if we have dinner as friends. And she’s like, no, Harry, goodbye and that’s it. They won’t see each other again for five years. Now they’re 31. It’s five more years later, and we are in the present timeline of the movie. Sally is at the Loeb Boathouse in Manhattan, having lunch with Carrie Fisher at Marie, played by Carrie Fisher and Alice, their other friend. I mean Marie, the Carrie Fisher character, again, straight out of a Woody Allen movie. I am having a long-term affair with a man who’s married and I’m convinced that he will leave his wife and everyone else knows. He never will leave his wife otherwise. What is her deal?

Laci (01:11:06):

Marie’s deal? Nothing. She seems down to earth. They all seem tight. They’re just your typical friend group and they’re all writers or whatever that they all know each other from work. Right.

Matt (01:11:20):

Marie does window displays or something with displays, but yeah, they’re successful career women. But

Laci (01:11:28):

Sally already knew, already knew Marie before Joe, because they say that you tried to fix her up with the same person. She pulls out of her Rolodex six years ago. So they’ve been friends for forever, probably since Sally got to New York.

Matt (01:11:43):

Yeah, Sally’s 31 years old. She tells them, I broke up with Joe a few days ago. I feel pretty good about it, honestly. I mean, I’m 31 years old and Carrie Fisher’s like, and the clock is ticking. She’s like, no, the clock doesn’t start ticking until you’re 36. So I’m uninterested in meeting any men right now because even if he’s the right man, it’s the wrong time, which means he can only be a transitional figure. And Carrie Fisher says, the right man might be out there for you right now. The right man might be out there right now for you, but it was the wrong time, and you’ll have to spend the rest of your life knowing that some other woman is married to your husband.

Laci (01:12:18):

The infatuation with being in relationships was very real. I mean, even though their career people, even though they moved away from home and they’re in New York living the fucking dream, being as independent as you want. I mean, even Sex in the City is about the four of the most successful fricking women, but all they talk about is being in a relationship.

Matt (01:12:36):

But here, I don’t know if it’s the case on Sex in the City, but Carrie Fisher is like, it means that you’ll never have to be alone on a national holiday. It means you’ll always have something. It’s literally kind of just a box you can check so that you don’t have to worry about it anymore. It’s never like, don’t you want love and passion?

Laci (01:12:55):

But we’re socialized to feel that way. Little girls have play wedding dresses. I wore my mom’s wedding dress all the time. You have fake marriages. You’re always being asked who your boyfriend is, how many kids are not? Do you want to have kids? How many kids are you going to have? I was never asked where I wanted to go to college, never asked what I wanted to do. By the time whatever age your mom got married, you’re like, fuck, I’m going to die alone. You don’t even mean to be prioritizing it. It just is.

Matt (01:13:29):

Yeah. So it’s just a form of social conditioning, just like, I need to have a good job and I need to go to a good college. And it’s not like, oh, we live in a liberated time where now women can achieve anything, go to college, get great jobs, make up 50% of the workforce or whatever. There’s still going to be questions and expectations of everybody. None of these things are about fulfilling what we actually need. As long as you’re viewing human relationships as a commodity, I need to be married so that I can check that box and so that I can have this amount of kids by this time and fulfill the American dream, get the things I’m supposed to get. But then the movie will do a lot of toggling back and forth between the women will talk about it, this, the men will talk about it this way except

Laci (01:14:13):

Harry, but they’re all talking about the same thing. They’re just talking about it from two sides.

Matt (01:14:17):

And Harry is way more emotional and devastated about his breakup. And I think he’s so good, Billy Crystal, especially in this scene at just showing depression on a face as not being sad, just being like,

Laci (01:14:29):

I

Matt (01:14:30):

Can’t just defeated

Laci (01:14:32):

Monotone

Matt (01:14:34):

And tells this very sad story about his wife first saying, I think I want a trial separation, but we can still date. And he’s like, but we got married so then we wouldn’t have to date. But then, yeah, it was all a lie. She already moved in with somebody else, a tax attorney. She moved in with him, and as he is doing all of this, saying all of this, they continue to do the wave, the wave, but then Harry and Sally reunite at the bookstore, and you’ll notice every single book in the bookstore is like men and women pop psychology relationships.

Laci (01:15:02):

He’s in the personal growth section, but they’re at the personal growth table. When you read the books that are on her table, they’re fucking crazy.

Matt (01:15:09):

Which is why I think that the thing of the interviews might be like people today, they’re overthinking it. It’s just, did you feel a zing? All right, go for it buddy. Sally sees Harry from across the store, sees him looking at her, and he’s like, this guy, he never remembers my name, but immediately walks up Sally Albright, how are you? And it’s like because he is depressed, it is making him calmer and less manic and more open, and now they’re good for each

Laci (01:15:33):

Other. He’s not trying to dazzle or he’s just like, oh, a human. I need to connect to a human maybe.

Matt (01:15:41):

So it’s like the whole thing about the movie is relationships are all about timing. And that can include friendships because because of where they were specifically right here and eager to dump on each other about what they’re going through with their relationship difficulties, it led to them realizing, oh, we’re best friends. Oh, you are a perfect person for me to want to spend all my time with Cuts to them having lunch. She says the thing, like Joe and I, we always agreed we didn’t want kids, but then we didn’t want them because all my girlfriends, I wanted to ask you, do women still call their female friends girlfriends?

Laci (01:16:16):

People who do that still do that. People who’ve never done that, will never do that. I don’t know how to explain it, but I’ve always had one or two people in my life who will say that. And no one else talks that way. It’s always someone who’s just a little bit older than me, but not much. It’s fucking weird. I don’t know.

Matt (01:16:33):

It is. And it’s almost like demeaning, like, well, it’s just my girlfriend. She’s like not even a person. She’s like my girlfriend.

Laci (01:16:39):

Yeah, why gender it? I don’t know.

Matt (01:16:42):

Especially when girlfriend means something

Laci (01:16:44):

And when you’re presumed to only have friends that are female, but it is a way of making it lesser. Yeah.

Matt (01:16:53):

My girlfriends who had kids, they would say that once you have kids, you never have sex anymore because it drains the sex drive out of you and Joe. And I said, it’s so great because we can have sex on the kitchen floor or fly off to Rome. And I love that she says, but Joe, we never do it. We never do that. We never do either of those things. And so that’s why the relationship ended and they just, Harry and Sally walking around outside, it’s beautiful. It’s shot so beautifully. And she says, would you like to have dinner with me sometime? And I think you disagree with me, but I think she’s asking him on a date.

Laci (01:17:27):

It does sound like a date,

Matt (01:17:28):

Especially when you pair it with what Marie told her earlier.

Laci (01:17:31):

Sure. But I think she just realizes, I just had a great day. I want to do this again. So I think it’s maybe purposefully vague. It could read that way, but not, I don’t think she feels shot down that he says yes and thinks they’re on a date,

Matt (01:17:52):

But I think her intention is Let’s go on a romantic date. And he says, are we becoming friends? And her face is a little like, oh yeah, yeah, we can do

Laci (01:18:01):

That. I think she would’ve been open either way, but I think she is perfectly aware that neither of them, she’s very levelheaded. They are days out of really traumatizing breakups,

Matt (01:18:15):

But she thinks it’s not traumatizing to her. She thinks she is okay

Laci (01:18:19):

To do it, but she’s still aware that anyone she ends up with right now is a transitional guy.

Matt (01:18:23):

So then there’s a scene where they talk on the phone in the middle of the night watching Cassa blanket together. It’s adorable. Adorable. The movie now means different things to them than it did 10 years ago. Just like when Harry met Sally does

Speaker 3 (01:18:34):

Now

Matt (01:18:35):

Thinking about it way differently than I did when I was 16 or even

Laci (01:18:40):

Five years ago.

Matt (01:18:40):

Yeah, I saw in letterbox the last time you and I watched, this was in 2020, he says he can’t sleep because he misses Mrs. Helen. This is actually the part where he talks about the low maintenance woman, Ingrid Bergman. There was a low maintenance woman. He’s like low maintenance, high maintenance. What are you talking about? What am I? You’re the worst. You’re high maintenance. Who thinks she’s low maintenance?

Laci (01:19:00):

I don’t think he ever proves that. I don’t think she thinks she’s low maintenance. I’m difficult. This is why this movie is a fall movie. It’s not necessarily Christmas movie, but you could call that. But I always thought of it as a New Year’s movie when it all, but anyway, just you always see the leaves. It’s so pretty.

Matt (01:19:22):

I mean, it’s a movie that goes through. It’s like we’re going to cover a year and a half or so and we’re going to mark the seasons, but the most iconic stuff is the fall foliage in the park because they’re shooting on location. They’re doing these really long shots that were a hallmark of Woody Allen. You will just set the camera really far away and the actors will just slowly walk toward the frame as you listen to them talk.

Speaker 3 (01:19:44):

Reiner

Matt (01:19:44):

Cuts a lot more than Woody Allen did, but it’s still the same sort of thing. And then they go into the museum and you’re seeing them just the huge shot of them with the windows towering over them. Another from Woody Allens Manhattan did this. When they go into the planetarium, and this is where they do the silly pie, the pecan pie voice. Maybe I’m stupid. What voice is he trying to do? Is this a German voice? What is this?

Laci (01:20:07):

It’s a Billy Crystal voice. I’m not totally sure. It’s definitely European, I don’t know, be by. I have no idea. But anyway, it’s just a beautiful little way of showing how they match each other’s freak and doing something really silly that you wouldn’t do on a date or even a fifth date because you’re posturing. You’re being your best self or whatever it is you think that person likes about you self.

Matt (01:20:35):

It’s just like dating is weird. Dating. Dating is weird. It’s a weird way to figure out who you want to be with, but it’s what you got what we got.

Laci (01:20:43):

So anyway, this is where you’re like, they are so best friends, but this is also where Sally reveals that she’s the first one of them that are going to go on a date, but he’s truly happy for her, I think,

Matt (01:20:56):

Which I too think She says, I’ve been nervous to tell you I’ve been going on a date. We’ve been spending so much time together. She’s acknowledging the kind of blurred lines here of what we’re doing. And he’s like, I think it’s great. And you can see on her face that maybe she’s a little bummed that he thinks it’s so great. Maybe she wanted a little bit of conflict with him, see it in her face. I do think she’s more romantically into him for most of the movie than he is of her, but part of that is just she’s an easier person.

Laci (01:21:26):

Well, he’s not available emotionally. His heart is truly broken. And as a woman, it is a bigger deal on you for you to be spending all this time with a guy if he’s not interested in you romantically and physically, that’s saying something about you where if a guy’s hanging around a woman and that never becomes a thing. It’s just no shit on the guy you just weren’t

Matt (01:21:50):

Chosen. The cat’s deli scene, most famous scene in the movie, the Fake Orgasm Debate. I’ve read some critiques of people who say, Sally wouldn’t do this. This is too Sally like to make a show of herself in public. But I think we haven’t seen anything in the movie that shows that she’s easily embarrassed or anything.

Laci (01:22:07):

No, not at all. That’s the part of my thing with Neurodivergence also. I think she’s performing for him. He’s silly and crazy, and this is part of what makes her, she’s kind of unpredictable. Cool.

Matt (01:22:21):

Yes, yes.

Laci (01:22:21):

She seems like such a hospital corners person, as he says. But she could still whip some shit out like this or just completely decide to sing a karaoke song with you in the middle of Sharper Image. Like, okay, I’ll do it.

Matt (01:22:32):

She has some freak in her, and he lets the freak come out when the whole world is treated her like, oh, you’re the most adorable girl in the world, aren’t you?

Laci (01:22:39):

With your little checkbook and your calculator and your buttons all the way buttoned up to the top of your fucking neck with a sweater on top of that,

Matt (01:22:49):

The first scene of, I mean, when they’re going from college and they go have that meal at the diner, the meal at the diner, she says, it doesn’t matter how many times I’ve slept says something of how many men I’ve had sex with. And the whole diner stops and looks at her, they hear, and she’s not embarrassed or anything, she just notices.

Laci (01:23:07):

No, she’s just right. Exactly. I totally agree.

Matt (01:23:09):

Yeah. Now, of course, Harry and Sally and Bill Crystal and Meg Ryan had to reunite a million years later to recreate this for a Super Bowl commercial. Let’s take a look.

Laci (01:23:19):

Oh God, man, I hate that. Don’t even like the scene.

Matt (01:23:22):

You don’t.

Laci (01:23:22):

No.

Speaker 5 (01:23:28):

There we go.

Speaker 6 (01:23:29):

Oh my gosh, so good. It is. So this one’s real. Oh, oh. Add that as a sandwich.

Laci (01:23:42):

I’ll have what she father. Okay. That was better. Is that fucking Sweeney,

Matt (01:23:48):

Sydney Sweeney? Why did you have to get

Laci (01:23:49):

Her? Did she kill the fuck off?

Matt (01:23:50):

Jesus. How you can’t remember your old friend’s names, all these stunt reunions and Super Bowl commercials and on Jimmy Fallon and everything. It’s like, I don, wait, I don’t remember. Did Billy Crystal and me Ryan do this again? I don’t remember. It’s like these things just disappear into the ether.

Laci (01:24:05):

These reunion things. Yeah. Okay.

Matt (01:24:07):

Yeah, they don’t mean shit. It’s just kind of sad.

Laci (01:24:09):

It warmed my heart a little bit.

Matt (01:24:11):

Yes. But I’m saying in two weeks, I will say, Hey, Laci, do you think they’ve recreated their moment? And you’ll be like, I don’t know, probably

Laci (01:24:18):

Ask me in two weeks.

Matt (01:24:19):

Okay, so New York at Christmas time, New York is so magical at Christmas time, snow in the park, ice skating, enormous Christmas trees, and then it’s New Year’s Eve, and they’re at this, what they keep calling the party, but it’s like an enormous ball on the top floor

Laci (01:24:33):

Of, it’s the same person every year that has this party. They call it the Kennedy’s party or something. It’s just someone they both know

Matt (01:24:40):

These fucking

Laci (01:24:41):

Fuckers. These fucking fuckers. This is like the most class has played in a movie and wealth and careers without it. It’s generational wealth. It clearly is from all of them, but it’s never commented on, and there’s not one scene with a parent ever. And this movie’s all about relationships. In a different movie, you have the phone call with him and his mom and like, oh, you don’t, you got to get, oh, Sally, that’s who you need to be with. I love the absence. I love that. It’s just friends. New York does that, though. I feel like New York is just specially the catalyst for movies that are just about your friends for some reason.

Matt (01:25:18):

It’s a good point. But you can see it in their performances. Their parents, they have parents and their parents have made them who they are, but it is,

Laci (01:25:25):

But they’re confident.

Matt (01:25:26):

This movie just zips the fuck along. It’s 95 minutes. It’s lean.

Laci (01:25:30):

You

Matt (01:25:30):

Don’t need be. You don’t need

Laci (01:25:32):

It.

Matt (01:25:32):

I’m sure it’d be funny if Billy Crystal had a phone call, come on, ma, you’re telling me. I mean, from City Slicker. She calls him on his birthday every year to say the same thing. But yeah, they’re going to just a little, well, it’s the thing about class is Invisible in America. You don’t see it. And the wealthier you are, the less you would notice. It’s the more frictionless your existence is.

Laci (01:25:55):

I just feel like there aren’t movies anymore that never mentioned money, never mentioned ambition. This movie’s not about ambition. Everybody’s got the career they want. No one’s even upset with their bosses. No one’s trying to get a promotion. No one just had a really good year. There’s not mention of It’s all this friendship and the relationship the four of them are going to getting into. Because I feel like Carrie and Fisher and Carrie Fisher and Jess are a big part of this movie too. In my head

Matt (01:26:24):

They are. And he’s the only one. Jess Bruno Kirby is the only one who talks about writing, talks about his opinions, and he’s writing a book. Oh, let’s look at the cover print of my book. He’s doing other stuff. Everyone else is just like, I got to get married.

Laci (01:26:38):

I mean, people say what it is Billy Crystal does in this universe, but I have no fucking,

Matt (01:26:43):

I know Tracy. I’m a political consultant,

Laci (01:26:45):

And all I know for whom about Sally’s credentials and efficacy at being a journalist is that she types fast and doesn’t look proud of her, proud of her when she does that, and it serves her. And you’ve got mail,

Matt (01:26:57):

The type of journalist that both she and Rooney Kirby are. I go to restaurants and say things like,

Laci (01:27:02):

ENT

Matt (01:27:03):

Ki is the new pesto. I’m like, oh, I read that, but they’re

Laci (01:27:06):

Not both

Matt (01:27:06):

Sad. And I made $150,000 a year doing that, right?

Laci (01:27:10):

They gave me an office.

Matt (01:27:11):

So yeah, it’s New Year’s Eve, and if you’re alone on New Year’s Eve, there could be nothing sadder, which the one year I was single, I definitely felt I was depressed as hell. I got drunk by myself. You kiss

Laci (01:27:22):

A person

Matt (01:27:24):

Or you go to sleep before midnight and hope that your son doesn’t notice the fireworks. But they dance cheek to cheek because this is like them at their most uninhibited, uninhibited, like we’re on a date with each other tonight because neither of us had other dates. So yeah, it’s a

Laci (01:27:41):

Date, and he’s signaling that he’s not depressed anymore. He finally shaved his beard. So he’s ready to

Matt (01:27:47):

Mingle, but they put their cheeks together. This always happens in movies and people and TV shows. As we saw the Leftovers finale, people put their cheeks together and like, oh,

Laci (01:27:56):

Well, for me it’s ash cheeks, but I’m always too short to be doing any of this. I really have to get up there.

Matt (01:28:04):

I

Laci (01:28:05):

Famously date no men that are my size. It’s disgusting.

Matt (01:28:08):

Everyone says that.

Laci (01:28:08):

It’s fucking gross.

Matt (01:28:10):

I just, you use that present tense. You have not dated in so long. True. You’ve been with me more of your life than you haven’t been with me. I mean, that’s not true, but it will be true very

Laci (01:28:19):

Soon. Very soon, yes. I have one long-term boyfriend that was my size, and I’d never ever do it again. I dated a guy that was my size, who skinny and just a little bit taller than me. And when I got on top of him to have the sex, I like, where’d you go? Where’d you fucking go? Hell, man, I thought I was going to break him is disgusting.

Matt (01:28:45):

And then it’s midnight and everyone kisses. And so Billy Crystal, Meg Ryan give each other a very polite, friendly kiss on the mouth. And then the most bizarre freeze frame freeze

Laci (01:28:56):

Is a freeze.

Matt (01:28:57):

There’s a freeze frame of them.

Laci (01:29:01):

Weird.

Matt (01:29:01):

It is weird. Yeah. So

Laci (01:29:03):

A mid movie freeze frame.

Matt (01:29:05):

Yeah. Harry and Sally go on a double date with Marie and Jess.

Laci (01:29:07):

So uncomfortable. So fucking uncomfortable. I hate that. I mean, this scene is, it goes fast enough, but I’m always like, damnit this scene.

Matt (01:29:15):

Harry, you’ll date Carrie Fisher, Sally. You’ll date Bruno Kirby. Yes, it’ll be great. And then wouldn’t it? Those two other ones end up liking each other. And I think Bruno Kirby, who’s fantastic in the movie, everyone’s great in the movie Gary Fisher’s great. He mentions the writer, I fucking forgot, just some fucking New York writer who’s like, oh, the people in New York then you’ll never meet people like this. And Sally says like, well, I’m just not that big a fan of him. And he’s like, well, he’s the reason I got into the writing business. But that’s not a problem.

Laci (01:29:44):

He says, it’s still mean though, but that’s not a problem. And then he looks at it’s train and he never says anything again like Is fuck this

Matt (01:29:50):

Broad. But they end up clicking Jess and Marie do. And when they’re outside walking, Jess is just like, well, I don’t feel like walking anymore. I’ll get a cab. I’ll go with you. And just couldn’t get away from there faster.

Laci (01:30:02):

But right after both of them earnestly assure the other one that they, oh, no, nothing today. We wouldn’t want to hurt Sally or Henry. What, Harry?

Matt (01:30:12):

It’s four months later, they’re at a sharper image. We’re here for Harry, we’re here for Marie. And Jess looking for a gift for them for their nuptials.

Laci (01:30:21):

They moved in together, I think. Yeah, they’re getting them a housewarming gift, dummy.

Matt (01:30:26):

Wow. Why don’t we get them this karaoke machine? I’m just a man in Oklahoma. No, I’m just a lady who’s also there. I don’t know.

Laci (01:30:33):

The fridge

Matt (01:30:34):

On top

Laci (01:30:38):

One lather. It’s my voice, isn’t it? Oh, Joe hated my voice.

Matt (01:30:43):

But no, he sees his ex, Helen. Oh God.

Laci (01:30:46):

And then she says, Helen into

Matt (01:30:48):

The

Laci (01:30:48):

Microphone,

Matt (01:30:49):

Who’s there with Ira?

Laci (01:30:50):

Ira couldn’t look better. That light bulb shaped head. Look at that. He’s got an idea. You can tell.

Matt (01:30:55):

So in Woody Allen’s Manhattan, Diane Keaton’s character is always talking about her sex. God ex. And she talks about him the whole movie. And then she’s hanging out with Woody Allen in a store, and then she’s like, oh my God, there he is. And the guy who walks into frame is Wallace Sean, the voice of Rex from Toy Story. The teacher from Clueless, inconceivable from Princess Pride. Got it. And so that’s the joke is that this guy, and it is shot. I mean, this scene is shot very much like that scene. But this is the sad version of that scene. This causes Harry to spiral. They go to Justin Marie’s house and he starts yelling at them. You’re going to get divorced because all life is pointless, and write your names and your books. You’re going to fucking hate each other, I promise. And they’re like, no, we won’t. Yeah, you will. Fuck you. And he runs outside. And Sally goes to

Laci (01:31:45):

Check on him, but also get on to him. I’m always like, ally, you’re way out of line here. He’s upset. You don’t fucking talk down to him. There’s a time and a place here. That’s not what he needs right now.

Matt (01:31:57):

It’s the worst scene in the movie. It’s the only scene that I think doesn’t totally work. It’s just like we need to yell at stuff at each other. So yeah, well, it’s rich coming from you because nothing bothers you. How dare you tell me. Nothing bothers me. I don’t have to take this. And then huffs off and then turns around. And

Laci (01:32:16):

I love the hug though. I just do.

Matt (01:32:18):

That’s great. And then he says, are you finished?

Laci (01:32:21):

He says, are you finished?

Matt (01:32:22):

I need to add that to the list of lines that need to be eliminated from movies. Are you finished? Alright, I’m sorry. Oh,

Laci (01:32:29):

Well, fuck. Right. Well, excuse me. Nos flash that to give rid of that too. Oh God. This is so well acted. This is the scene where she’s upset because Joe’s getting married. So he comes over and she’s just blowing through these Kleenex. Oh my God. You act like they’re free, Sally, you’re really using them up. But her makeup’s kind of messed up. Her hair’s adorable. But she’s in like a mama nightgown. She’s wearing socks, don’t do that. And she’s just crying and blubbering and crying.

Matt (01:33:01):

She has this tiny glob of Kleenex in her head, and she’s like, I need a Kleenex. And he goes, okay.

Laci (01:33:08):

But she’s very

Matt (01:33:08):

Cute. Joe is marrying Kimberly. He’s supposed to be on his transitional girlfriend, but now he’s decided he wants to marry her all this time. I thought he didn’t want to get married, but he just didn’t want to

Speaker 3 (01:33:18):

Get

Matt (01:33:19):

Married to me. I drove him away and I’m going to be 40

Laci (01:33:23):

Difficult,

Matt (01:33:24):

And I’m going to be 40 when

Laci (01:33:26):

Someday, someday

Matt (01:33:27):

It’s just out there, but it’s there. It’s sitting there, some big dead end.

Laci (01:33:32):

True.

Matt (01:33:33):

And he’s like, well, what about this? I’ll give you one of those polite friendship pecs on your mouth. Will you hold me some more?

Laci (01:33:41):

Don’t. I hate that fucking phrase. Hold me. This is one of the movies I hate it from. I just hate it.

Matt (01:33:46):

Why?

Laci (01:33:47):

I don’t know, Matt. You think I know?

Matt (01:33:50):

So yeah, it gives her a friendship hold. But then they end up kissing They fuck they fuck

Laci (01:33:54):

They fuck. And she just could not be more. And now all of a sudden he’s seeing the sexy side the same way in Groundhog’s Day, when the morning after, when the day finally changes, and all of a sudden for the first time, he’s seeing the sexy side of

Matt (01:34:14):

Annie McDowell, of Rita

Laci (01:34:15):

Of Rita, someone he’s known for so long and has never seen this side of her. And all of a sudden now her voice is different. I’ll think of something. And they’ve known each other for so long that this point in the movie, and all of a sudden she’s like, you want some water or something? Really no trouble.

Matt (01:34:32):

She has wanted to do this. And this is why I say he’s a freak, because he’s laying there being a fucking freak. And she comes back, disrobe rubs her tits and stuff onto him, and she’s like This new Alpha Battalion or video, VHS cassette tapes. And she’s like, yeah, do you want to watch something? He’s like, no. And what she says is, do you want to go to sleep? And what she means by that

Laci (01:34:57):

Is, I know what she means by that.

Matt (01:34:59):

What she means by that is, I hope not. I want to fuck again. And he’s like, no, thank you. Sleep for me. Please. He’s a fucking freak. Meg Ryan is trying to fuck you again. And you’re like, no, I can’t.

Laci (01:35:11):

But he’s doing it out of care because he realized this didn’t instantly make him fall in romantic love with her. This made him have all kinds of other pent up weird emotions. Yes, he’s being protective of her.

Matt (01:35:24):

No, that’s way too kind. He’s just being a freak.

Speaker 3 (01:35:29):

Whatever. I don’t agree with you.

Matt (01:35:32):

Next morning he is getting dressed and he is like, I cannot be with you this morning because I have worked and so do you. Dumb ass. It’s so you

Laci (01:35:40):

Alright? But I would love to take you to dinner if that works for you. I’ll see you at eight or whatever he says.

Matt (01:35:45):

So Sally calls up Carrie Fisher. Harry calls up Bruno Kirby to explain the situation. But when we get the shot, when get the shot of Jess and Marie sleeping, what are they doing

Laci (01:35:55):

Cuddling. Jess is cudd. I’m just

Matt (01:35:56):

Cud, but he’s cuddling her, so it’s like You’re wrong men to cuddle. I like to cuddle way more than Laci likes to cuddle.

Laci (01:36:02):

Yeah. Get the fuck off me.

Matt (01:36:03):

No, you like it too.

Laci (01:36:05):

What the fuck? Whose side are you on?

Matt (01:36:07):

But it’s just like, no, you don’t need to cuddle all night, but you get a little cuddle, you roll away, get a little more cuddle in, roll away.

Laci (01:36:13):

You’re just trying to rub your dick on me. No, not always, which I like. Oh good. Don’t do it.

Matt (01:36:18):

Sometimes a lot of times you’re like, look at my

Laci (01:36:20):

Boner often. Look at it. Hey, look at it. Look at my non boner. How about that? Crazy. Yeah. Right. I put one 10 on you and it’s boner city. You got one right now. Now he looked down,

Matt (01:36:32):

I’ll be damned. They go to dinner, the saddest dinner, and Sally says it was a mistake. And he’s like, I’m so relieved to hear that. You think so too? And she just looks devastated.

Laci (01:36:43):

I’d be devastated.

Matt (01:36:44):

And then they just chomp on their salads. And Harry says,

Laci (01:36:46):

The try is fucking no dressing salads.

Matt (01:36:49):

Harry says the worst thing you can say, which is like, it’s so nice when you cannot talk ever. It’s not uncomfortable at all.

Laci (01:36:56):

And then just unfortunately, they’ve got a wedding right around the corner three weeks from this time. So they will be forced to be together again when they were at Marie and Jess’s wedding. But Sally spends that whole time. He’s not calling. He doesn’t realize he needs to call her and be around her again until he sees her again. But in the meantime, he’s bugging the shit out of Jess because he’s seeing Jess way more than usual and just constantly talking about Sally. And Sally’s just depressed and hurt and she doesn’t have the power here. So she’s just kind of stewing on it.

Matt (01:37:32):

You’re right. I didn’t realize that. Yeah, he’s radio silent for her and just leaving her alone in her thoughts.

Laci (01:37:38):

Yes.

Matt (01:37:38):

And she’s so angry with him when

Laci (01:37:40):

They finally see each other. Both are going to, this wedding means a lot to both of them. And she’s been friends with Marie for as long as she’s been friends with fucking him. This is, you’re fucking up a day that I should really like by not clearing this with me, clearing the air. I shouldn’t be wondering if you’re taking someone to the wedding, you should be telling me you’re not. We’re the only part of this wedding party and we’re going to stand two feet apart while wedding valves are red. What the fuck?

Matt (01:38:08):

And shot in such a way where it looks like we are getting married.

Laci (01:38:10):

Yeah.

Matt (01:38:11):

We are not actually showing the bride in the groom, but at the reception he’s like, Sally, why can’t we just get past this? Are we going to carry this around forever? And she’s like, it’s happened three weeks ago. Which is an interesting,

Laci (01:38:22):

Because you don’t know, this movie has a ton of time jumps. You don’t know that it’s that close by

Matt (01:38:27):

Until

Laci (01:38:27):

She says it.

Matt (01:38:27):

Right. But you can see maybe a few where they do get past it and it’s 10 years later and people are like, Sally, he’s never going to date you. And she’s

Laci (01:38:39):

Just, it’s fucking sad.

Matt (01:38:40):

Yeah,

Laci (01:38:40):

Yeah. No, she’s right. She drew a line in the sand. Her feelings changed. And if his don’t, this is over, whatever this is, it hurts me. And she’s got penguins all over her room when you realize that once she’s sad and calling Marie and famously penguins mate forever, they find one mate and she’s got, and you don’t even know she collects penguins until you’re in and you don’t know it while she’s crying or anything. You don’t notice it. You don’t notice till he’s gone and she’s in her bedroom and then pans around. There’s penguins everywhere. I

Matt (01:39:06):

Know this. We’re doing the audio portion now. There’s no video, but is a shot. There’s a scene in the movie where Harry is getting a hot dog from a cart with Jesse, with Bruno Kirby. And the hot dog vendor, I swear to God is also Bruno Kirby. He doesn’t talk. And I swear, if he wasn’t handing him a hot dog, I wouldn’t know which one is which. So try to find this seam when you watch the movie. There’s two Bruno. I swear it.

Laci (01:39:32):

Oh, he swear it.

Matt (01:39:34):

But yeah, I mean, he tells her, I’m not saying it didn’t mean anything. I’m not saying it didn’t mean anything. What I’m saying is does it have to mean everything? And then he sort of makes it her fault. You called me over, you looked to me with your big eyes,

Laci (01:39:46):

Right? Yeah. Fuck you.

Matt (01:39:47):

And that’s when she slaps

Laci (01:39:48):

Him and he deserved a slap. And he comes out with a little red mark, and I’m kind of sad for him.

Matt (01:39:52):

So now it’s a different Christmas this time. Sad.

Laci (01:39:58):

There is not a movie that plays Al Lang sign, Al Lang sign in it where you don’t make a slide in our slideshow titled it. Sorry. There’s not, anytime it’s sung, you put it on the slide. You are obsessed with this song. Obsessed.

Matt (01:40:14):

I don’t elf.

Laci (01:40:14):

It happened. Just an elf.

Matt (01:40:16):

I don’t spend a ton of time coming up with titles for the slide. They’re

Laci (01:40:19):

All pretty funny. But okay,

Matt (01:40:21):

Meg, she’s hauling in a Christmas tree, but she’s by herself now and it’s much harder. And he keeps leaving apologetic voicemails, but still being, rather than being vulnerable, still coding it in his

Laci (01:40:34):

Humor.

Matt (01:40:35):

His humor. Just phone wa come on and go to the Yankees game with me. And finally she picks up and she’s like, I just like, I don’t want to do this anymore. I can’t be your consolation prize. He asks her like, Hey, remember

Laci (01:40:51):

He going to go to the Yeah, you’re going to New Year’s Eve. Yeah.

Matt (01:40:53):

No, I’m not going to be your consolation prize. So it’s sad. New Year’s Eve, Harry’s alone. Sally’s at the party, just this intimate little party with some dude who she doesn’t like.

Laci (01:41:01):

It’s not an intimate little,

Matt (01:41:02):

I know.

Laci (01:41:03):

It’s the opposite. And she’s not there with him. She’s just dancing with him that time.

Matt (01:41:06):

Oh really?

Laci (01:41:07):

Yeah. That’s why it’s not weird that she leaves.

Matt (01:41:10):

That would be weird if she just ditched the guy that she took.

Laci (01:41:13):

Yeah. Because she’s dancing with one guy and then talking to another right after.

Matt (01:41:15):

That’s true. Yeah. Wants to leave at the same time. Harry realizes his mistake and does the rom-com run Romcom run runs four miles across the aisle of Manhattan.

Laci (01:41:25):

He’s not even wind when he gets to her. Yeah, just a little sweaty

Matt (01:41:28):

Catches her as she’s leaving the party. I mean, the thing that makes him realize the revelation like, oh, I loved Sally. Is what

Laci (01:41:38):

Is that? When he sees her? Well, he can’t stop thinking about her. He doesn’t want the responsibility of breaking her heart. So he made it very friendly afterward and tried to pretend this sex didn’t happen. He doesn’t know how to force himself to fall in love, but he knows he cares about her enough to, he can’t not have her in his life. And to him, that’s not clicking. For him, that means something more than, this is my best friend. This might mean this is my forever person. But seeing her again, seeing how hurt she is in real life and he’s not compelled to never talk to her again after the wedding. He cannot stop thinking about her, checking on her, checking on her, calling her, calling her. He wants to make sure she’s okay. He wants to get back to hanging out with her all the time. And he realizes on his walk on the national holiday that there’s no difference between this. I can’t stop talking about her the three weeks before the wedding and after the sex, and then I can’t stop thinking about her. The three weeks that happened after the wedding. I can’t fucking stop. So

Matt (01:42:45):

He’s walking it.

Laci (01:42:46):

She’s different.

Matt (01:42:47):

He’s walking around New York City and it’s at locations that now are infected with her memory, that arc. Forget what the arc is called in the park. It’s like this is where she dropped me off on our first. So she’s just like, she’s everywhere now. She is a part of me. So he runs, I catches her as she’s leaving the party gives the speech. What I love about this, this is great. This is the best of all the rom-com speeches, rom-com endings, watching the movie with both AirPods in. I could hear the sound mix and I love that the noise of the party is getting louder and he has to speak louder and kind of yell at her. His big revelation, when you realize you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. And she’s crying and she’s like, it’s just like you Harry. You

Laci (01:43:31):

Say something like that and make it impossible to love you. No, it’s possible to hate you. And I do hate you, Harry. I hate you. And they kiss. They kiss a crying kiss. They only kiss when they cry, she cries,

Matt (01:43:45):

But it’s midnight, an old Lang Z plays. And they’re like, what does this song mean anyway? And he does some Billy Crystalling like, oh, they want you to forget the friend or even go,

Laci (01:43:52):

Forget the friend. No, they need to do that. They need him to act normal now because they just kiss. They did something sexual. So he immediately goes, I know how to make this, not me, not freak out. I flip right back into treating you like I’ve always treated you and we get to do both. He just didn’t click for him. He could do both. So that’s why after the kiss, he has to snap into that and she knows to lock it in

(01:44:15):

That she has to snap back into friendship because I’m telling you, it is the way she was acting after sex that freaked him out. She’s kissing him all over her body. She is naked. He, and she knows her so well and has never met this person. And he’s never seen her cry before. So this is a night of new stuff. You are capable of new things, Sally, and you are freaking me out. And so if she just snapped right back into wanting to talk really fast and talk about ordering things on the side, you want to get Chinese food and make everything on the side, then he would’ve been fine. The sex would’ve been fine, but it may not have ever turned romantic. She needed to realize she wanted it romantic. He needed to realize he was okay and understood. He could have it both ways.

Matt (01:45:00):

Yeah, because the friends with benefits thing is like, yeah, we fuck because we’re like good at fuck it, and then we just watch TV or we just,

Laci (01:45:07):

Right. That’s empty

Matt (01:45:08):

Too. Out to, no, I’m not saying that doesn’t have to be empty, but it’s like,

Laci (01:45:11):

But it would be for her,

Matt (01:45:12):

Not you. Made me realize it is because she acts very intimate and romantic after the sex, whereas a friends with benefits thing would be like, we fuck and then we just continue to be bros together.

Laci (01:45:26):

Right. He realized he turned a dial on accident where he might’ve thought, oh, I’m comforting her. Or they’re just taken with the moment.

Matt (01:45:34):

Yeah, I mean part of it is because she was so vulnerable. I don’t know. Maybe if they were just super drunk, then he could get over it. It was like, oh, that actually was, we were just so

Laci (01:45:44):

Drunk. Yeah, right. Oh yeah.

Matt (01:45:46):

But she has the great line. Whatever, Harry. It’s about either way, it’s about old friends and then they kiss again. So you’re right. They’re mixing their fun banter and they’re laughing and she’s always laughing at things he says,

Speaker 3 (01:45:58):

And

Matt (01:45:58):

Then they kiss again, and then it cuts to the interview. Three months later, we got married. We had this really wonderful wedding. I’m just going to play it. I think that it is the funniest cut in movie history. So brilliant.

Speaker 6 (01:46:12):

Three months later we got married. Yeah. It only

Speaker 5 (01:46:14):

Took three months,

Speaker 6 (01:46:15):

12 years and three months.

Speaker 5 (01:46:17):

We had a really wonderful wedding.

Speaker 6 (01:46:20):

It really was a

Speaker 5 (01:46:21):

Beautiful wedding. It was right. We had this enormous coconut cake.

Speaker 6 (01:46:24):

Huge coconut cake with the tears. And there was this very rich chocolate sauce on the side,

Speaker 5 (01:46:30):

Right? Because not everybody likes it on the cake. It makes it very soggy.

Speaker 6 (01:46:33):

Particularly the coconut soaks up a lot of that stuff. So you really, it’s important to keep it on the side.

Speaker 5 (01:46:37):

Alright, it to be you.

Matt (01:46:42):

Him going right and it instantly cutting to black width. Very important. The credits are rolling.

Laci (01:46:49):

Let’s get out of here

Matt (01:46:50):

So that these are the credits now the movie’s over. It is done. The song is playing. It’s so brilliant in every way. God bless everybody involved with this movie.

Laci (01:47:16):

This is an alternate poster. I like the one where they’re in the park. I like the poster with the fo leakage. Foil. Leakage foil

Matt (01:47:24):

Each. Me too.

Laci (01:47:24):

Yeah. Well,

Matt (01:47:25):

But you know, they’re standing on top of New York City and New York’s really a character in this movie. What do you think of this movie, Laci? What are your final thoughts?

Laci (01:47:32):

Okay. Kidding. It’s a five. It’s always been a five. It’ll always be a five. This movie’s a fucking five. Oh, they made Billy Crystal taller here. No, you’re not Sweet baby. No you’re not. He’s taller

Matt (01:47:42):

Standing on the Chrysler building.

Laci (01:47:44):

She must be down in New Jersey

Matt (01:47:46):

Five for me as well with a heart on letterbox. Honestly, maybe a top 20 movie now for me. Nice. Maybe if I said, what’s a better movie, Annie Hall, or when Harry Mets, I’d say Annie Hall. But I don’t watch Annie Hall anymore, so maybe that’s why. This is the Annie Hall. You’re allowed to watch the

Laci (01:48:08):

Annie Hall. I want to watch the Annie Hall moves. I am looking at a camera that’s not there. Annie Hall. Just keep doing it.

Matt (01:48:17):

So yeah, I mean, yeah, we’ve said, what else is there to say? It’s a perfect movie. It’s a great movie. Check it out people. Check out Win. Harry Met Sally. I want to encourage everybody to follow us. One week Rental, Laci and I, one Week Rental is the name of our podcast. Follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, blue Sky, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok links in the description. My band is Roar. Route nine. We do the music for the show, including the song you’re hearing right now. I’m on letterbox at Matt Stokes. Nine Laci’s on letterbox at Load Bearing. Laci, you change that

Laci (01:48:51):

No longer makes sense.

Matt (01:48:53):

Okay, and we love you. We are best friends with you.

Laci (01:48:57):

Goodbye.