Stephen King’s It (1990)

Matt (00:00:21):

This is 1-Week Rental, a movie podcast where we spend a week with a movie and take you along on the journey. I am Matt Stokes recovering film snob, trying not to be so obnoxious.

Laci (00:00:30):

And I’m Laci Roth, a nostalgiaholic blossoming into a cinephile to my delight and against my will.

Matt (00:00:37):

Each week we do a deep dive into a different movie. We spend the week with it, watch it multiple times, read interviews about it, research it.

Laci (00:00:43):

Then we talk about the movie. What works, what doesn’t? Do some irresponsible psychoanalysis of the characters and the people who made it.

Matt (00:00:51):

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Laci (00:01:00):

And everything we say comes from a plaques of loving movies. Even if we don’t enjoy the movie, we never regret watching it. We want to celebrate it. We certainly could never make a movie of our own.

Matt (00:01:11):

Okay. That being said, we know that we can be rude and nasty and too negative and obnoxious and that’s all true. If we criticize a movie that you love, that is okay. Tell us in the comments. Tell us why we’re wrong. We’d love to hear from you. This is a discussion. We are just here because we love talking about movies and we want to have a fun discussion, but we are not experts and we get things wrong all the time.

Laci (00:01:31):

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Matt (00:01:39):

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Laci (00:01:43):

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Matt (00:01:47):

So we spent this week with Stephen Kings at the 1990 made for television movie. How many times did you seen this before, Laci?

Laci (00:01:56):

15.

Matt (00:01:57):

15 times. Wow. I’d only ever seen it the once because of course we covered this movie once before all the way back in 2017.

Laci (00:02:05):

No need to listen to that dear viewers and listeners.

Matt (00:02:08):

No, you don’t need to do that. No,

Laci (00:02:09):

No, no. We want to shield you.

Matt (00:02:11):

But we really, really dove in this time, spent the week with Stephen King’s It, and we’re going to tell you all about what we learned in our history segment. All right, let’s talk about the history of Seeding Kings It. And this is apropos of what we were discussing in our opening, The Fear Monster, the monster that is just embodies fear itself. I have a quote for you, Laci, from Quentin Tarantino. 2019, he was on Eli Roth’s podcast and he said about Steven King, he said, “The book It: The Book It is Stephen King’s rip off of Nightmare on Alm Street. He just replaces Freddie Kruger with Pennywise. It’s just exactly like he sees Nightmare on Alm Street. Oh wow, that’s good. That’s a really neat idea. That’s really clever. That’s cool. Well, let me take that idea and do my version of it. Now his version of it is going to be a 560 page novel.

(00:03:17):

Well, it’s twice that long quick. It’s

Laci (00:03:19):

Way better than fucking Nightmare and Elm Street.

Matt (00:03:22):

I disagree. He’s a terrific writer in that regard. So he fills it full with minutiae and he fills it with his good prose and he fills it full of his good writing, which is what Wes Craven didn’t have. Take away all that cake frosting and all the little frosting flowers that are put on it and all that. It’s basically a rip off of Nightmare on Elm Street.

Laci (00:03:37):

Everything is a rip off of everything. There’s only so many archetypes in this world. Quentin turned out, don’t give me reasons to not love you.

Matt (00:03:42):

Of all the people in the world to be saying that. On

Laci (00:03:45):

Your work is derivative of other ideas, but you’re celebrating them. I’m sorry. Stephen King can’t take an idea and then celebrate the fuck out of it. Also, the timing doesn’t work.

Matt (00:03:54):

And I know it’s just a thing he said on a podcast, so maybe it’s just … We say tons of shit too. True. But it’s like, yeah, Quintero, that’s your whole career. And guess what? That’s why you’re great. Yeah. The frosting is the thing. The flowers are the thing.

Laci (00:04:09):

Disagree. I hate frosting, but I get your point. I take your point.

Matt (00:04:14):

A story is not a plot. A story is how is the story told? The story of it is I’m seeing simultaneously adults and children and knowing the continuity between them, which is why the remakes don’t work as well. But the other thing is Wes Craven also didn’t invent that idea. And I even think the idea that Pennywise takes on the form of what you’re most afraid of, that’s one of the least interesting ideas, I think.

Laci (00:04:40):

Oh yeah. I’ve never cared about that part of it.

Matt (00:04:43):

And because when you see with Richie Tozier, it’s like we don’t have enough time to develop his character, so he’s afraid of werewolfs. Right,

Laci (00:04:49):

Because we saw that movie that time.

Matt (00:04:51):

Yeah. That’s a shortcut and it’s like, well, that’s not as compelling.

Laci (00:04:55):

Well, and it isn’t even anything, right? It had to take the form of something. So it took the most common fear and that’s the character and it’s brilliant and I love it. But even it isn’t it. It’s a fucking weird spider clawed thing. It’s even further … It’s anything that you are afraid of and it’s also this clown.

Matt (00:05:15):

Hopefully.

Laci (00:05:16):

But it’s also the spider.

Matt (00:05:17):

Hopefully with it, welcome to Dairy coming out on HBO this Sunday. We’ll finally learn how did it decide to take the form of Pennywise the Dancing Clown/Bob Gray. Can’t wait to learn that. Because

Laci (00:05:28):

It’s the best.

Matt (00:05:30):

But I mean, like when King wrote the book, I know there were fucked up clowns in fiction and stuff before, but it really did. The clown industry has never forgiven Stephen King for what he did to them because you’ll see quotes like Tim Curry- He looks

Laci (00:05:42):

Like Bozo.

Matt (00:05:42):

Tim Curry talking about clowns are so comforting to children. And it’s like, I think you right now don’t know how much you’re going to change that because clowns are only scary now, but we’ve talked about that a lot. But yeah, a nightmare on Elm Street certainly did not invent the fear monster. Here are just a couple examples from mythology. Phobos, where we get the word phobia, the God and personification of fear. The mayor from Germanic folklore would sit on your chest while you sleep causing you to have bad dreams, night sweats, sleep paralysis. Sleep apnea. This is where we get nightmare. Ah, I love it. The puka from Celtic folklore. It’s a shapeshifter. Disguises itself based on your fear. So like Quentin Tarantino, fuck off.

Laci (00:06:25):

Please do.

Matt (00:06:26):

The satanic panic people of the 1980s. Well, it was a time when … I mean, can you give somebody like sort of the Reader’s Digest explanation of what this was?

Laci (00:06:37):

Sure. There’s just a few … Basically what it ended up doing was forcing false memories out of very susceptible children, rewarding them with your praise for whatever they’re giving you so that they keep giving you the thing you want, accidentally creating wholly fictionalized stories about satanic cult abuse. The most famous case I think being the daycare case and that ended up being completely wrong.

Matt (00:07:07):

And this therapy is called Recovered Memory Therapy and it’s totally bunk. It’s totally discredited. There’s repressed memories that’s not a thing.

Laci (00:07:14):

No, it’s not. But children who are being groomed or just who are getting the attention of adults who want to keep asking them questions and seem pleased by their answers, kids from that era would probably really crave that. So I could see them giving them exactly what they want, but it was making people rich. I mean, Michelle Remembers was huge.

Matt (00:07:37):

Yeah. That was this book by this psychologist, Lawrence Pazder, and then his patient/wife, Michelle Smith, about him helping her supposedly recover her memories about experiencing satanic ritual abuse. And like with stranger danger, it’s like, oh, the things we need to fear are our children’s daycares and the things that’s happening to them when we can’t see them. And one of Stephen King’s insights is like, what actually the parents themselves are going to be the ones that often-

Laci (00:08:03):

And even the ones that are around. I mean, the whole daycare was perfect for to be the thing that was the boogeyman because women were just starting to always were just starting to be the norm for them to get out and work. And there was a lot of guilt over putting your kid with a stranger. So that was the perfect boogeyman.

Matt (00:08:23):

Yeah. So that’s why something like that can take off at the time because now it is becoming so common. So many moms have this anxiety that still exists, but way less so. It’s less common for a woman to stay home with their kids all day. But yeah, it was like you have … Society’s insisting you need to feel a little something for that. So where do you put those feelings? Satanic abuse.

Laci (00:08:45):

Right. All of our anxieties become a horror movie and I love figuring out which ones they are when I’m watching. It’s the horror movies that aren’t wrapped around something human like that that I get really fucking bored with.

Matt (00:08:55):

What’s an example?

Laci (00:08:57):

Anything Rob Zombie’s ever touched. I just feel like it’s all-

Matt (00:09:00):

I don’t agree.

Laci (00:09:01):

Oh, well, that’s bad for you. No, I don’t know. I just feel like some things are just more style over substance in the horror genre. I mean, in any genre, but the shock factor of it all, I guess the saw movies, I don’t know. The saws have their own lore. I don’t have an example for you. When something isn’t bolstered by something more real, it’s empty calories.

Matt (00:09:23):

I think that they’re- It doesn’t

Laci (00:09:24):

Stick.

Matt (00:09:25):

They’re all trying to do what you’re saying. It’s just they might be more successful or they may not.

Laci (00:09:32):

I do feel like some movies that are horror are made just with an aesthetic in mind and not a real like, “Oh, this is a horror story. It’s about a demon.” But the ones that are demon movies that are about something else, those are the interesting ones, like when the demon’s actually abortion or it’s when it’s allegory that

Matt (00:09:57):

It’s

Laci (00:09:57):

Really

Matt (00:09:57):

Good. I agree, but I also, to me, a movie doesn’t have to be quote unquote about something to be great, but that’s a-

Laci (00:10:06):

And I’m not saying that’s the only thing that makes something great. That’s just what makes something my movie. That’s what for me is-

Matt (00:10:11):

What kids are fired up?

Laci (00:10:12):

It’s what makes something stick. If I’m still thinking about it and still drawing parallels to it after I’m talking about it in the car the whole way, you’ve won. You’ve won.

Matt (00:10:22):

Right. Often the first time we talk about a movie is when we start recording, but this we talked about last night, we talked about it this morning. So yeah, at least he’s very, very into it, which I’m glad because when she suggested we revisit it, we don’t often revisit old episodes. Okay. I don’t know. I wasn’t expecting there to be so much there there.

Laci (00:10:46):

But the big difference was that the new movies had come out and it took seeing them not get it for me to realize how much the first on understood the material.

Matt (00:10:57):

There are tons of people who love the new movies and that’s great. And so many more people have seen those than saw this one that we’re talking about and I’m sure there are people who are younger than us who are like, “What are you talking about? ” That cheesy old TV movie that feels like a soap opera, you just don’t get it, man. But I think whether he intended it or not, I mean, recovered memory, this just accepted, you’re hearing it on the news, adults may be repressing memories that they’re going to recover. I think that Stephen King definitely ingests that and is like playing with it in a very interesting way.

Laci (00:11:34):

Yes, because it’s just a way of not believing your kids, right? It’s just another way of not putting the blame where it goes. So it makes total sense for him to write this in that moment because he must also be dealing with old feelings of not being believed or not counting as a full person yet and waiting for that moment, never quite arriving there, probably

Matt (00:11:53):

In a

Laci (00:11:53):

Parent’s eyes. Just kicks the can down the road. It’s frustrating because just when they’re onto something, just when there’s being laws and people are starting to be believed about sex abuse, they instead say that it’s like organized sex abuse, like big cells of it, different places, but it’s all due to do with Satan and it’s not just your everyday fucking uncle babysitting you or something. We can’t intrude on the family like that. That’s their behind closed doors business. And it’s like, no, that is what we need help with. We need a way to talk about that. I’m not being fucking ritually abused. I’m being normally abused.

Matt (00:12:31):

What’s another thing that happens to people when they start thinking about these things? I mean, I don’t know exactly when his kids were born, but he is a father and he’s like, more than 10 years, he publishes it in 1986. He’s more than a decade into this phenomenally successful career he could never have seen coming for himself where he’s the biggest literary celebrity in the world. His books are getting adapted. Stanley Kubrick fucking made a movie out of your book, dude. The

Laci (00:12:56):

Glowing?

Matt (00:12:57):

Yes, the glowing. And you’re such a powerful celebrity that you’re able to publicly feud with him over it. Who are you? You’re a bug. He’s Stanley Kubrick, but you have that ability. And it must be like a fucking whirlwind and he’s addicted to cocaine and he’s addicted to alcohol. I did

Laci (00:13:13):

Not know that.

Matt (00:13:13):

So it is probably like, what am I fucking doing to my kids? What am I ignoring or neglecting about the way I’m being a parent or difficult writer? Oh, dad’s in one of his spaces. They say it to Bill Denbro, his wife says like, “I wish you were just working on a novel. You’re so much happier. Now you’re working on a movie.” In 1986, Stephen King wrote and directed a movie.

Laci (00:13:34):

Yeah. So much of this, every character in it are just a way of him processing a part of himself he doesn’t like. He probably had a mom that was a hypochondriac maybe, or he certainly was struggling with substance abuse and that’s all throughout the adult life. The point of like, I have children and I still haven’t processed what it is that makes me have some bad habits. I probably should fucking work that out before I go giving them to these kids and I can see him trying to work all of that out through the things in his books that happen over and over and over again. The wholesomeness and the bikes are there all the time because it’s your first way to get away. It means you’re old enough to have one that which means you’re old enough to be away from the house for a little while and it means you can escape and it’s just the bike makes so much sense to be there all the time.

Matt (00:14:22):

The substance abuse constantly, because he’s been writing, he writes a book every year, has been for like 50 years now. Substance abuse is constantly a thing. He eventually did get clean, but like Danny in the Shining, his dad simultaneously, my dad has a horrible alcohol problem and I love him so much and the ultimate monster, my dad turning into this evil creature and trying to kill me

Laci (00:14:48):

And not knowing when he’s coming.

Matt (00:14:50):

And then Stephen King 40 years later writes a sequel about adult Danny who is an alcoholic. Huh. Interesting that these things, they reverberate in ways that

Laci (00:15:00):

He

Matt (00:15:00):

Tried

Laci (00:15:01):

To warn us ever since it. These things garbage in, garbage out.

Matt (00:15:07):

Publishes Carrie in 1974, Salem’s Lot, The Shining, The Stand, The Dead Zone Cujo, Christine, Pet Cemetery. A lot of his most famous books had already been come out by the time it comes out in 1986. And again, in 1986, he directs a movie. Why is he directing a movie? What business does he have directing a movie? Yeah,

Laci (00:15:23):

What does he direct?

Matt (00:15:23):

Maximum overdraftThat’s the modera I’ve

Laci (00:15:24):

Heard of it.

Matt (00:15:25):

Is it a menu? I watched a few nights ago. Well, you came into the room and said, “You’re watching a Manio.” That’s what I was watching. And this movie, it’s not good. It’s fun. It’s clear this guy doesn’t know how to direct, but that in itself is kind of enjoyable. He said, “I was coked out of my mind the whole time. That’s why that movie’s no good. An assistant who was on set said, like six in the morning, we’d have a roll call. He’s already drinking beers. By 8:30, he’s on his 10th beer and yeah, that movie feels like it was directed by cocaine. Okay, so it. So it.

Laci (00:15:59):

Cocaine Bear Senior.

Matt (00:16:01):

There is a very, very good oral history of The 1990 It by Ethan Alter for Yahoo Entertainment written in 2015, look in the description for a link. Here’s what Stephen King said about writing it, “I’ve always been interested in childhood. For a while, I was the only guy around who wanted to write about children and grownups.” William Golding wrote an introduction to his book, Lord of the Flies, where he talks about the genesis of that story. He was sitting with his wife by the fire one night and he said to her, “What would you think if I wrote a book about boys, but instead of writing a book about the way grownups like to remember boyhood, I write about how boys really are. ” She said, “That’s a fantastic idea.” So he wrote Lord of the Flies, which is a book about children for grownups.

(00:16:42):

I thought to myself that I’d really like to write a story about what’s lost and what’s gained when you grow up from childhood to adulthood and also the things we experience in childhood that are like seeds that blossom later on. It is his intention. This is going to be my magnimopus. This is going to synthesize all the things that I am so fascinated with. I

Laci (00:17:02):

Think- It’s the most ed thing he

Matt (00:17:04):

Makes. Stand by Me was based on a Stephen King novel called The Body. I think that was written after, but the movie came out before the … Standby Me is such an obvious parallel to it. It’s the it that doesn’t have horror in it, but-

Laci (00:17:21):

Dead body and child abuse.

Matt (00:17:22):

Well, yes, but without the supernatural monster. Which we will cover on the program one day.

Laci (00:17:28):

We have to. I mean, it’s so many people’s load bearing beep. I

Matt (00:17:31):

Think I’ve just avoided reading that one because I just know it’s going to annoy me with all the Moby Boomer stuff.

(00:17:40):

Okay. So 1986, it comes out like all of his books, it’s huge. So it’s going to get an adaptation. They all do. But at the time, TV movies were fucking huge. Roots obviously in 1977. The biggest TV movie of all time was in 1983. It was called The Day After about the aftermath of Nuclear War. And there’s like the Thornbirds with Farah Fawcett in the ’80s. And so the idea, let’s do a TV movie rather than a theatrical movie that could be huge for us and the success of it kicks off a wave of TV adaptations of Stephen King novels. We have the Tommy Knockers in 93, The Stand in 94, the Langaliers in 95 and The Shining in 97, which Stephen King personally produces. So it’s like, this time we can do it right. The stand is my favorite of his books. It is a sprawling thing that would be impossible to adapt into a movie.

(00:18:33):

But when you watch The 1990 It, which is also based on a sprawling impossible to adapt movie, a book, you can see exactly how you do it. You just need three hours. But ABC initially wants George Romero to direct. He’s the Night of the Living Dead Dawn of the Dead guy. He had worked with Steven King on the Creep Show movies, which are all based on Stephen King’s short stories and he would go on to direct an adaptation of the Dark Half and ABC committed to George Romero with an eight to 10 hour TV series, but then they reduced that number so he dropped out. Everything gets turned into a mini series today that is 10 hours long at least. This would be a sort of a novel idea, but it’s just so refreshing that it is just three hours and you’re done. So Romero drops out.

(00:19:22):

The screenwriter that they commissioned was Lawrence Cohen, who had previously adapted Carey, the Stephen King novel into the classic film by Brian DePalma. And he said in that oral history quote, “Steve was pretty much radio silent throughout the process. A couple of factors to keep in mind. First he felt comfortable with me. We became friends during the making of Carey, so I think he felt it would come out well too. He also had the opportunity to read the various drafts of the script as I finished them. Secondly, he was comfortable about it being a novel for television. This was the heyday of networks adapting lengthy novels for TV and initially it was going to be an eight to 10 hour series. Thirdly, the producers brought George Romero on to direct. He and Steve had worked together on Creep Show and I was beyond ecstatic as a huge fan of Night of the Living Dead.

(00:20:03):

It was going to be the horror miniseries to end all horror miniseries. Of course, life doesn’t always work out the way it appears that it’s going to at The Times because George Romero leaves and is replaced by Tommy Lee Wallace, the director of the film. Tommy Lee Wallace is a longtime collaborator of John Carpenter, worked with him going back to his first movie, Dark Star. He was the production designer and editor of Halloween of The Fog. And then John Carpenter hired him to direct Halloween three, which is an incredible movie rejected at the time, but since everybody realizes it’s a classic … It’s the Halloween movie that doesn’t have Michael Myers in it. It was when they were trying to make … What if Halloween was just a difference, like an anthology series and it’s so cool. So he gets hired to direct it and he said that he was thrilled with the script for night one.

(00:20:52):

The script was broken up into like, this is like two episodes of a TV show, night one and night two. And the dividing point is when Stan kills himself.

(00:21:02):

On VHS, apparently the two tapes were like tape one ended and there were closing credits and then tape one began with opening credits. If you watch it now, it’s just like one video file and it just jumps from Stan killing himself, his wife going, ugh. And then immediately you’re into the next part. So you don’t even really notice it, but that is like the … If you know that that’s where it’s ending and you watch the movie, you can feel like this is all building toward this shocking thing that happens. That’s also like another reason I think this is just such a good script is that stuff happens at the very beginning of the novel, of Stephen King’s novel. And it’s such a smart idea to take this really, really upsetting and striking thing and have it happen halfway through the movie.

Laci (00:21:44):

Well, and just it builds on the whole point, which is that the trauma affects each of them in very different ways. One of them being a substance abuser, one of them being in a physically abusive relationship and another one not being able to cope with anything more that life has to give them so they kill themselves and one of them never leaving the town they were in, feeling responsible somehow for like staying in poverty, like that they needed to stay.

Matt (00:22:12):

And getting to see them as younger kids rather than one after the other after the other, taking some time with them as adults, taking some time with them as kids, you get to know them. What they’re like as an adult has more impact than in the novel where you meet them one after another. By the time you get around to Stan as an adult, you realize he’s the kid who seems the most or seems like the least equipped to handle all of this. Yes.

Laci (00:22:36):

He’s been the most resistant all along. The kids, they decide that it’s him, but he didn’t survive because he was the last person to see it. But the point is he was the one that never truly bought in and felt like he could be safe because he had his friends. He did not truly buy that idea that he had people to lean on and that that could take responsibility off of him. And you know that because he keeps reciting his creed as his boy scout, that it’s his duty to defend and protect and honor and all. It’s all on him. And so Stan never lets it go because he doesn’t feel like there’s something to help him. He’s it. The buck stops with him.

Matt (00:23:18):

And reciting the scouts thing, that is a thing that’s external to the group. What do you mean? He’s identifying himself by something that is not this group itself.

Laci (00:23:29):

You don’t mean they can’t hear it

Matt (00:23:31):

Because

Laci (00:23:31):

He’s saying it outright, but they’re accepting of his tic because it is just a vocal tick. It’s clearly his self-soothing behavior. But you’re right in that it’s a unique one because it is making him remember over and over again his duty. He’s alone. He is responsible.

Matt (00:23:49):

But also his life outside of the group, that that’s going to be his anchor. It’s not, you guys are my anchor. It’s, “Well, I’m a Cub Scout and I have a busy life as a Cub Scout when I’m not busy with Utwarps.” God, the moment where they all share the inhaler, not in the book, just such a almost teared up watching it because it’s funny. It seems like a sort of weird thing kids would do is like, maybe we should do some sort of ritual here. They don’t even address it. They just do it.

Laci (00:24:16):

Well, and it’s the thing I always say that sort of facetiously, that’s why the craft works. They all decide they’re going to be witches. None of them are having any success as witches until the real witch comes along. But God damn it, on Monday we’re all wearing our witch shit and that’s what’s fun. And when they all decide that he says, “Ugh, it tastes like battery acid.” And then they all, even though that was said, they all then take his battery acid and because they all decided it right then, his strength in believing that they have strength in their numbers is what Meltaff is face off when he says it’s battery acid. It’s like because we believe it, it is so. It’s enough. Doesn’t mean fake things are real. It means what we think is real is valid.

Matt (00:24:59):

And I guess it is just seeing these kids on screen that I buy them more than I buy them on the page where like Beverly is a very fully formed character, Bill’s a very fully formed character on the page. Richie is, Stan is like a … Oh, and Stan was there too, I guess. Eddie is like … There’s some of them who are defined by their relationships with other people rather than relationships within the group. What were you going to say?

Laci (00:25:23):

Well, and I think the rewrite of Mike and the new adaptations totally take away from Mike. Mike’s characteristic in the new ones is he’s the homeschool kid that delivers meat. And in the original movies, he is a historian who brings in, I think it’s just so pointed to make the black person the town historian or for him to have taken on that role because yes, his history would be way more important for him to keep himself and not be whitewashed. Here are these photos. This is the crimes of the past of this town. I’m showing them to you. I own them. Don’t take them from me. You white asshole trying to beat me up at the end and I’m going to stay here so that Dairy remembers it’s passed and I’m going to be a librarian and I will be in charge of the microfiche.

(00:26:05):

And you can’t tell me that this is not what happened in this town. And they take that away from Mike and the new one where he’s just the fucking meat kid.

Matt (00:26:13):

Well, that’s just a consequence. That too is a consequence of not getting to se him as an adult because in chapter two, the adult Mike is the town historian who stayed. Who

Laci (00:26:23):

Loved

Matt (00:26:23):

Me? But they

Laci (00:26:26):

Give that to Ben. Ben’s the historian in the new one. He’s the one with the shit all over his walls. He’s the nerd. He’s reading all the books. He knows the history when

Matt (00:26:34):

They are kids. Both of those come from the book where, yeah, Ben is the nerdy reader. Mike is the one who’s like, he has this very sweet relationship with his dad who tells him all about the history of the town because of what you said, because of their skin color putting a target on their back and then the power of him saying like, “This town, there are good people in it who have totally embraced us. There are bad people who have not. I own that this is my town and I belong here and it’s almost an act of defiance that I stay here.”

Laci (00:27:04):

In its face, I will stay. I have always been here and I will stay here.

Matt (00:27:09):

In the book he is homeschooled. That’s why he doesn’t know the other kids. The movie has to make it smaller so there’s basically one classroom. Also, it’s weird that they’re like, “I wish the summer would never end two scenes later they’re in school.” I know. Because it’s so important that it takes place during the summer. If they’re going to school, it’s very strange.

Laci (00:27:29):

Yeah. And they’re wearing so many layers of clothing in the summer, but I guess I just took it to mean that the summer was still going. They just are back in school.

Matt (00:27:37):

Right. But when you’re a kid, when you are on your own during the summer and you get to, your sort of development can happen the way you want it to

Laci (00:27:47):

Or

Matt (00:27:47):

Stagnate

Laci (00:27:48):

Because

Matt (00:27:48):

You never

Laci (00:27:49):

Leave your fucking room.

Matt (00:27:50):

Yes, exactly. Okay. Night one and night two, Talia Wallace was thrilled with the script for night one, but he had problems with night two. He said, “Larry had completely moved away from the plotting of the book and created a much smaller story, a very interior melodrama focusing on Beverly’s husband as the ultimate bad guy,” or something to that effect. I wasn’t happy with it at all, but Larry didn’t show much enthusiasm for a big rewrite. I asked him to come to Vancouver and work with me on the script for night two, but he declined. With little other choice, I turned to the best writer I could get for no money myself. The rewrite better reflected the basic plot of the book or as much as a radical condensation would allow. “He’s the uncredited final writer of the movie and I think it’s a great script.

(00:28:31):

I think it’s an incredible job of condensing just that sprawling mess of a novel. The adult actors were cast first. They’re getting TV stars like John Ritter and Harry Anderson and then they audition kids who they’re prioritizing physical resemblance to their adult counterparts, but end up with some- I

Laci (00:28:49):

Love the kid actors and two of them become big things or three.

Matt (00:28:54):

Yeah. I mean, Jonathan Brandis becomes a star. Jonathan

Laci (00:28:56):

Brandis, that’s his fucking name. Yes. I couldn’t think of it.

Matt (00:29:00):

Seth Green grows on to, to this day remains a great character actor. Then some of the … The guy who plays Band is in a lot of stuff. He’s in the Wonder

Laci (00:29:06):

Years. Yes, yes. I know him from other … As soon as I saw him, I was like, ” Oh, I like that guy. Eddie, I don’t know from anything else and Stan and Beverly Marsh is so ingrained in my head. As soon as I saw her, I’m like, “I like that litle girl. Why do I like her?” “Oh, that’s Beverly. “I was just waiting for her to be a redhead because I’d watched the new one before I watched this one.

Matt (00:29:27):

Right. I forgot to look up … Do I know her from anything else or is this just one of those like, ” Oh, I know her from it. I know her from the thing I’m watching right now. “Tim Curry cast as Pennywise. The other finalists were Malcolm McDowell and Roddy McDowell. Roddy McDowell played Cornelius in Four Playing to the Apes movies. Tommy Lee Wallace said Malcolm McDowell would’ve called on his inner drew. He’s from a clubwick orange and the result would’ve been menacing and colorful, no doubt, but Tim Curry was always the name for me. Honestly, it’s hard to think seriously of anyone else in the role. He is and was that good.

Laci (00:29:58):

You need a theater actor. Sure. Tim Curry has a theater background, right?

Matt (00:30:02):

Probably. It sounds right.

Laci (00:30:05):

You need that rubber face and that’s what he’s doing here. And just the delivery of the adult in the room making light of the situation while you’re going through a horrible trauma. Hey, is your refrigerator running? You better catch it. It’s such a perfect, oh, are you grumpy? Did someone need a nap? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? Someone’s in a mood. Just the way you undermine and minimize children’s feelings. And I feel like that’s what he is. He’s just in their face with, ha ha, someone needs cheering up today. Let’s completely cover the monster underneath and you just need to fucking laugh because you’re to be seen and not heard and you’re making me bummed child.

Matt (00:30:49):

So you got to get somebody … Tim Curry is like one of these classic English actors, like classically trained on the stage, which means yeah, you’re going to do Shakespeare in very serious shit, but it means you also have to learn to sing and do comedy and stuff. You have to learn all of that shit. And that’s what goes into wearing this giant prosthetic and being able to emote for you and be so scary. Here’s what Tim Curry said about playing the role in … He was interviewed for Fangoria in 1990. “What’s fun about him is that a clown is traditionally a very cozy, comforting kind of cheery image and penny wise is none of those things. I think of him all the time as a smile gone bad. That’s my image for him. And actually finding his look was very interesting because I heard that in some acting classes, well, certainly if you go to clown school, if you go to circus school or whatever, it takes a very long time to become a clown and they won’t let you put on a clown face for something like two years.

(00:31:43):

And finding your clown face is sort of part of the exercise of learning to become a clown. We had about a day to get through this

Laci (00:31:49):

Procedure.

Matt (00:31:51):

“He had so many good … I’ll just do one more. But in some ways I think that horror movies today have gone a litle too far away from the mind. I think we had a much more prosthetic version of this makeup, which was very scary looking and beautifully executed, but did too much work by itself. And I personally think that is what is most horrifying is the moment of decision behind somebody’s eyes when they decide to kill somebody rather than a pint of blood and a pound and a half of latex.

Laci (00:32:17):

Preach.

Matt (00:32:17):

I think Bill Scarsgard’s good as Pennywise in the new movies and he is responding to what Tim Curry did so it’s got to be different, but the CGI kind of fucks everything up.

Laci (00:32:28):

And his delivery, I know he made choices and he went with something more sincere and at the time that is definitely what people wanted, but it misses the point. It’s too odd. It’s too untrustworthy. There’s never anything comforting about him and that’s not true with Pennywise. And Pennywise is like the shark in Jaws. He’s used so sparingly. He is at the end of everyone’s vision, but it’s a moment. It’s a good point. They don’t overuse him and you think you’re going to see him, but you hear him and when you see him, it’s so brief.

Matt (00:33:01):

The makeup was by Bart Mixon, legendary makeup artist. They said the main inspiration was Lon Cheney in Phantom of the Opera, the 1925 movie, which I have on screen. Yeah. I mean, the challenge for Scarsgard in the new movie is also like, there is no more cultural association of clowns with a fun thing for kids, but you can see it in the Tim Curry performance now though. I could conceive of a version of him who’s nice.

Laci (00:33:30):

I had a clown doll. I mean, the whole theme of my room was like circus when I was five or I don’t know when I can remember seeing pictures of my room, but it bothered me the doll because it was wooden wrapped in clothes. So you could feel it’s wooden joints and body and this just hard thing underneath clothes. So it disturbed me because it wasn’t cuddly.

Matt (00:33:56):

Well, I mean- But

Laci (00:33:57):

Not because it was a clown.

Matt (00:33:58):

Yeah. Versus the Bill Scarsgard clown, which there’s no version. The nice version of that doesn’t exist. All right, this movie aired over two nights on ABC, November 18th and November 20th, 1990, watched by 30 million people, got positive reviews. Part one was much more heavily praised than part two. The screenwriter, Larry Cohen said, quote, night one is as strong as it is because the kids are featured so prominently and there’s some amazing magic with them just as there is in Stand By Me. Stephen King said, “You have to remember my expectations were in the basement. Here was a book that sprawled over a thousand pages and they were going to cram it into four hours with commercials, but the series really surprised me by how good it was. It’s a really ambitious adaptation of a really long book. The kid actors were good and the adult actors were terrific.

(00:34:44):

There’s an earlier generation who remembers watching Salem’s lot on TV and then there are the kids who remember seeing it. Get them while they’re young. That’s my motto.” I mean, he is right. This probably did turn on a generation of kids to Steven King.

Laci (00:34:57):

Oh, no. You can’t trick me into reading, you fuck.

Matt (00:35:00):

You did though.

Laci (00:35:01):

Okay. That’s just because of the library a lot. It’s just access. I just kind of realized for this first time, and this is probably kind of stupid, but the fact that he’s a clown and this is why it works in 1960 and doesn’t work in the 80s is that’s also the point. I’m sorry, you’re going to go to your mom or dad and be like, “Oh my God, I’m so terrified. I saw a clown.” To them they’d be like, “What the fuck are you talking about? You love clowns.” That’s like saying, “Oh my God, I saw a puppy in the cellar.” It’s like that kid can’t put their finger on it, but knows that that clown meant them harm. That clown is bad and just because he’s dressed as something good and I’m reporting about a thing you already think you know about, you’re not believing my account, you’re believing what you think you know about clowns.

Matt (00:35:49):

Yeah. Whereas it’s 1989. I saw a clown in the town square like fuck. Were

Laci (00:35:54):

They trying to show you their dick?

Matt (00:35:56):

Yeah.

Laci (00:35:56):

Yeah.

Matt (00:35:57):

That sounds like that movie it. One more thing before we close this very long history section is the child orgy. So even people who have not read the book are familiar with the infamous child orgy. Okay. T be fair, it’s not actually an orgy. It is Beverly having sex with each of the boys one after another.

Laci (00:36:17):

Sexually.

Matt (00:36:17):

Yeah. It’s not group sex. Are you familiar with this? Yeah.

(00:36:22):

Yeah. So in the novel, when the kids are in the sewers and they have defeated penny wise, but they’re lost in the sewers and the effort of defeating him has weakened their bond with each other. And the whole thing is our strength is our solidarity, but that solidarity is waning. I know what I’ll do. I’ll have sex with each of them. Also because Pennywise is still here. We didn’t kill him forever, but if we become adults, his power won’t work on us anymore. So how do we become adults? We’ll have sex. I know people joke about it. It’s not a throwaway. It’s a thing that is built to the entire novel that it is teased and it’s a story about leaving behind your childhood. So it’s the symbolic level two. So 2013, here’s what he said, Steven King said, “I wasn’t really thinking of the sexual aspect of it.

(00:37:11):

The book dealt with childhood and adulthood, 1958 and grownups. The grownups don’t remember their childhood. None of us remember what we did as children. We think we do, but we don’t remember it as it really happened. Intuitively, the losers knew they had to be together again. The sexual act connected childhood and adulthood. It’s another version of the glass tunnel that connects the children’s library to the adult library, but times have changed since I wrote that scene and there is now more sensitivity to those issues.” I know he didn’t say I wouldn’t do that today because like-

Laci (00:37:38):

Well, I know you’re sensitive everyone today.

Matt (00:37:41):

Yeah. I-

Laci (00:37:42):

You guys love that shit in the 80s though.

Matt (00:37:45):

I don’t think it is him being transgressive. I think this is a book about really confronting all the ugliness and the humanness of life. I know it’s … Yeah, don’t have 11 year olds have sex with each other.

Laci (00:37:59):

Don’t do that.

Matt (00:38:01):

But within the book it does make a lot of sense.

Laci (00:38:04):

I mean, because I’m perfectly okay with how many times Beverly kisses them randomly, I believe all of it. I think it’s so sweet. Who doesn’t want to be Beverly Marsh? Queen of the fucking losers.

Matt (00:38:13):

And in the passage in the book, it’s sweet. Sweet. They all say I love you when they’re done. Yeah. And the way it’s depicted is they don’t actually understand what they’re doing. But yeah, just wanted to-

Laci (00:38:28):

Touch on that.

Matt (00:38:29):

Touch on that child

Laci (00:38:30):

Orgy.

Matt (00:38:31):

Wording. Okay. Well, that’s the history of it, everybody.

Laci (00:38:34):

Okay. I’m sure the rest of this will be brief.

Matt (00:39:11):

I could be talked into the idea that everything that happens in the film, It 1990, is all John Ritter and Adult Bend. He’s making all of this happen just so he can give Beverly a sensual rub on her shoulders.

Laci (00:39:25):

How would he do

Matt (00:39:26):

This? Give me those toes. I don’t know. He’s twisted up. He’s the world’s most celebrated architect. He knows people. That’s true. He’s a problem solver. Just give me those shoulders. Yeah. Give me that chin.

Laci (00:39:40):

I think this swing. I think this scene is sweet and I think you are fucking it up.

Matt (00:39:45):

I knew you’d be mad with every joke I made about this movie. This would be a dirty dancing. Not this movie. She’s rubbing her back against his dick. Yeah, tell me about your Trackstar days.

Laci (00:39:54):

It’s rough to watch before they announce that they are a couple. You

Matt (00:40:00):

Want to know that they’re a couple, that they’re legally wet or at least betrothed.

Laci (00:40:03):

No, I just mean because she seems to equally be in love with all of them in a way. She has a moment with each of them, especially Eddie and definitely Richie. There’s moments with Mike even. She says she loves them all.

Matt (00:40:17):

Yes. It’s just John Ritter got in there and he’s like, “I got to get up. These shoulders aren’t going to rub themselves.”

Laci (00:40:21):

How could you resist a beard of that magnitude? I don’t

Matt (00:40:25):

Know.

Laci (00:40:25):

You want that beard on your lady beard if you are me.

Matt (00:40:31):

Okay. Well, Dairy, Dairy Main.

Laci (00:40:34):

You had to show a ginger that’s close up. Matt has the largest picture of a ginger child on the screen.

Matt (00:40:41):

From the film.

Laci (00:40:42):

I mean, I know. Those freckles.

Matt (00:40:44):

Little girl, a lot of freckles, sees a clench like, “Heck clown.” And her mom’s like, “Lorianne, you get in this house right now.”

Laci (00:40:51):

You’re riding by the street with your tricycle. I’m a normal parent. Come on.

Matt (00:40:57):

Get in here. The weather’s getting fierce. I don’t know. This is Tequila Mockenbird days

(00:41:04):

In Dairy, Maine. Look, I like this movie way better than the new movies. I think one thing the new movies have a better handle on is place. This is filmed in Vancouver. It looks very anonymous. It does not look like New England at all. The new movies at least have more stuff set in a town square. It’s filmed in Ontario, which looks more like New England. When they’re walking among the fur trees, it’s like this is not Maine. And Dairy is supposed to feel like a character in the movie. And I think that is probably my single biggest complaint about this movie.

Laci (00:41:37):

Well, allow me to counter that with that. I do not give a fuck about what you just said because it is the people and the adults and pointing to those people and adults that show the character and show the not rightness of dairy. I feel situated enough in the town. Enough to have not noticed or to appreciate it so much about the new ones that I’m like, “Hey, this feels authentic.” It really didn’t do them any favors to put one of the hottest young actors that’s still in the hottest young acting show that people always compare to Stand By Me and Sandlot and all the things. They didn’t do themselves a favor by putting that actor in the new ones, right? You’re

Matt (00:42:19):

Talking about-

Laci (00:42:20):

It just feels like Stranger Things.

Matt (00:42:21):

Then Stranger Things. Yeah. No, they did not. They did not do themselves any face.

Laci (00:42:25):

And he’s adorable, but I already got enough of you and you’re playing the same character twice, buddy.

Matt (00:42:30):

So yeah, the first thing we see is this little girl, oh, clowned. Oh, and then her mom comes out and she’s like, “Lori, Anne, where are you? ” We just see her overturning tricycle. We later find out she was found mutilated. Little girl felt mutilated.

Laci (00:42:43):

But I appreciate this movie for showing you enough without … We don’t need to see the arm ripped off of Georgie.

Matt (00:42:50):

No, of course not.

Laci (00:42:51):

And I understand that, but we already said this. Other choices could have been made if this weren’t so limited due to it being on primetime television, but it definitely ended up being in its favor.

Matt (00:43:06):

And because it was on broadcast TV, that’s why so many more people like little child Laci saw it and why it tormented them so.

Laci (00:43:13):

But I always liked it. It always felt like it has such a conclusion and it even concludes in a nice way for the children’s chapter as well that it always felt like it felt like it made me brave. Not because I watched it, but because yeah, I could kick that can down 30 years. I’ll be fine. I’ll be so smart when I’m 40. Look at me now.

Matt (00:43:37):

Yeah.

Laci (00:43:38):

Dairy?

Matt (00:43:38):

You know all kinds of stuff.

Laci (00:43:40):

I do.

Matt (00:43:42):

Then we go over and so the first thing we see, this is in the year 1990. It opens in 1990 and then this very melancholy saxophone score comes in like it’s Chinatown. Richard Velis.That’s

Laci (00:43:57):

The curse noise. If only Mike knew to listen for that saxophone, he wouldn’t have to be like, “I’m kind of sure.” Is that the curse noise?

Matt (00:44:06):

Richard Bellis does the music. I really love the score for this movie. It is creepy and also melancholy and kind of film noir, but then also kind of Twin Peaksy. The

Laci (00:44:13):

Ominous tones just …

Matt (00:44:18):

So this girl, she’s dead. She does.

Laci (00:44:20):

This girl dead.

Matt (00:44:22):

And then we meet a very special librarian named Mike Hamlin played by Tim Reed. If you ever watched Sister Sister Laci, I know Tim Reed. He’s the father on Tim on that show. You don’t have to

Laci (00:44:31):

Tell me twice. I know who that man is.

Matt (00:44:33):

And he’s at the scene and there’s this detective with a trench coat and a fedora and he’s like, “Hey, Mr. Librarian, get the fuck out of here.”

Laci (00:44:41):

Yeah. It’s an interesting … They’re trying to show us that there is a not loving relationship with him and not cops, but chief of police. People in charge of keeping the numbers low and dare because you see he’s got a white cop friend that’s perfectly willing to give him a little bit of information and seems friendly with him. But then you got the detective and you can tell Mike’s just been pushing a few too many buttons and trying to cause a ruckus. Again, this is the fucking mayor from the Jaws movie. He’s just like, “Hey, we got fucking … It’s skiing season suit.”

Matt (00:45:21):

Right. Or it’s just about the clown. Style Trump, keep that COVID cruise at sea, please.

Laci (00:45:25):

Yeah,

Matt (00:45:26):

This is

Laci (00:45:26):

Just another

Matt (00:45:27):

Everyday

Laci (00:45:28):

Mutilation.

Matt (00:45:29):

I just like that they’re treating him like a reporter, but he’s like, “Mike Hanlin, Dairy Public Library.”

Laci (00:45:33):

Because you know he’s constantly going to them and he even says as much as that he keeps trying to bring in the cops and they’ve been no help. In fact, they hinder. We shouldn’t bring them in.

Matt (00:45:44):

Hinder.

Laci (00:45:45):

Wow.

Matt (00:45:46):

Lips of an angel.

Laci (00:45:48):

Oh my God.

Matt (00:45:49):

Speaking of lips of an angel, we meet Richard Thomas as Bill Denbro and his rocking pony.

Laci (00:45:56):

In that birthmark.

Matt (00:45:59):

Richard Thomas’ adult, Bill Denbro. He’s kind of a Steven King-esque character.

Laci (00:46:03):

I did pick up a whiff.

Matt (00:46:06):

It’s there if you’re looking for it. If you’re not looking for it, you might not notice. But he’s Stephen King, he’s written a book in the studio that wants to adapt the movie’s like, who better to adapt the book than the author himself? And he’s married to a sexy actress who’s starring in the picture.

Laci (00:46:22):

Is she an actress? I didn’t gather that.

Matt (00:46:24):

I thought she’s just an

Laci (00:46:25):

Executive.

Matt (00:46:26):

Nope. She’s the actress. The movie doesn’t make it that clear. Down

Laci (00:46:29):

To earth though, that Audra.

Matt (00:46:31):

This is the actress, his wife Audra, played by Olivia Hussey. Damn, I forgot to get that. Hussy. I forgot to get our favorite clip from Black Christmas where she says- Oh, that’s

Laci (00:46:40):

Where she’s from. Hello.

Matt (00:46:42):

Hello. I mean, she’s from a lot of stuff. She’s from Romeo and Juliet. She just died last year. Didn’t get into the Oscar montage, which is insane.

Laci (00:46:52):

She died wrong.

Matt (00:46:53):

Here’s her role in this movie. She’s like, “Bill, I’m concerned.”

Laci (00:46:57):

It works for me. Also, I didn’t realize they were overseas until it’s her turn to get out there to dairy and she’s like, “I need a ticket to America.” I’m like, “You do? “

Matt (00:47:07):

Yeah. I need your next steamship passage to America, please. The statue of Liberty. Well, I mean, it says on screen Hempstead Heath, England.

Laci (00:47:15):

Oh, if it’s got more than three words on the screen or long three words, Laci don’t read that.

Matt (00:47:20):

But the phone rings, it’s a-

Laci (00:47:22):

Oh, it rings in Heathish. Is that what you’re about to say to me? I should have

Matt (00:47:26):

Noticed. Sure. Sure. It rings. It’s a different ring in England. It’s like bump, bump, bump. The phone rings. Bill, it’s Mike Hanlin from Dairy. The first of many times the dreaded Mike Hanlon call will happen. I think this is the only one that doesn’t precede a couple about to have sex. Mike Hanlon’s got the sex alarm. Someone’s about to fuck. I got to make a phone call. Right here, it was just Bill being annoying to his wife. This project, I don’t know. Bill, it’s hello. I think this is always effective, is the Mike Hanlon call that shakes something loosened their brain.

Laci (00:47:59):

They all do great face acting. They all have the same response to a confusion that is immediately replaced with a dread and then just growing dread that then leads them to connect with their childhood self and start doing whatever soothing behavior they used to do at that time. It’s so effective at putting … We understand they’re being put right back in dairy, but with a fog, a cloud of … I knew I didn’t feel right about this thing that happened 20 years ago. Yeah, because- You want to talk about

Matt (00:48:32):

It? Suddenly a fog is lifted and a whole new set of fog is squirted in at the same time. Yes. It’s so interesting dramatically to see. I’m just fascinated with whenever this happens. In the last season of Lost, if you recall, they had the Flash Sideways thing where they’re playing different versions of themselves and then they’ll run into people that they knew in other lives and the storm of recognition that comes from that. I will always like to see that.

Laci (00:48:59):

And this is maybe something like millennials and higher older can more relate to than now are now children, but there’s a fine out amount of pictures of us from our childhoods. And I always, when I’d visit relatives and stuff, I love to look in their photo albums that I just want to see what they have that I don’t have. And I don’t know if I’m collecting images of myself and my brain, but it is so jarring as an adult to … It’s so rare too, to stumble upon a picture of yourself from your childhood you’ve never seen before. And you just know all of a sudden you’re like, “I know I’ve never seen this. And I don’t know what day this is. I don’t know what party this is because I didn’t have it around for me to ask my mom, what was this? ” And spin my own narrative.

(00:49:47):

And it’s like a chunk of your life you don’t even know happened. It’s so weird.

Matt (00:49:52):

Whereas that will only happen for kids from now on is like, I don’t know, there’s like 10 billion pictures of me who gives a shit. But

Laci (00:50:01):

They can’t happen for them.

Matt (00:50:02):

Right. That’s what I’m saying. Yeah. But I think you and I are wired a little differently. I wrote this down as I watched the movie. I think why some of the stuff that happens in this movie is less interesting to me for the adults is because exploring your old house, I’m not that sentimental about things. If I got the chance to walk through an old house, I wouldn’t care. To me, something’s over and it’s like, oh, that person’s dead. It doesn’t exist anymore. It holds no interest for me.

Laci (00:50:32):

But you’re okay with the fact that every seven years or so along with your skin cells and your hair follicles, that you’re kind of a new person.

Matt (00:50:41):

Right.

Laci (00:50:42):

You’re okay with these and a little embarrassed by these older versions of you and you can’t really connect with them.

Matt (00:50:48):

And maybe it is because my parents lived in the same house most of my life and still do. And I have the thing where I go to their house now and things are different. The room that I spent my whole life in is now a sewing room, but I’m not like, “Oh, what up?” And all the memories. Because you

Laci (00:51:03):

Didn’t just walk in on it after years and thinking it was the same as it was in your mind. That’s not the same thing. Yeah, you can’t relate because you’ve always had such a strong sense of, “That’s my house,” and you’ve gradually watched a change as they decided to change it.

Matt (00:51:16):

We flashback to Bill and Georgie as a kid. He has not thought about George in 30 years, but now he thinks about it.

Laci (00:51:24):

That’s not true. That’s not true. I’m sorry. It’s important. He knows he has a dead brother, George. What he didn’t remember is that he was murdered. He knew and had told his wife that he was dead.

Matt (00:51:36):

He knows the book. This is a really great scene in the book of that division. I remember I have a brother named George. I’ve never thought about my brother George. I’ve never told you about my brother. Yes, you have a brother, George. Yeah. Well, actually it’s like, well, I always called him Georgie and he had a life and a personality and things that are just locked in a lockbox in my brain that I’ve never opened for you. But we flashback the sign that their house was full of joyous. His mom was playing furry lease on the piano.

Laci (00:52:06):

I think that’s the hint and indication that his parents were detached and depressed before Georgie died.

Matt (00:52:11):

Why?

Laci (00:52:11):

I don’t think that it was that happy household.

Matt (00:52:14):

All right. Well, yeah. I’m getting this from the book where it was a happy house, but in this movie it could be totally different.

Laci (00:52:23):

Okay. Yeah, that’s kind of making … I can only go off of what I know and what I know is the movie backwards and forwards like my fucking hand.

Matt (00:52:30):

So Young Bill played by Jonathan Brandis. Both movie adaptations really deemphasize the stutter, which I know is for … It’s hard to have an actor play a stutter without seeming like you’re making fun of people who stutter. And Jonathan Randis does a good job. I think the actor plays Bill in the new movies does a good job, but Bill is sick in bed and his little brother, Georgie. It’s 1960, but he’s acting, “Oh, gee whiz. Bill, give me a swell all sailboat all. Let’s go play stick ball.” And he’s like, “Yeah, George, I made you a swell sailboat, but you got to go down to the cellar to get a paraffin to seal of the boat.” So he goes down to the cellar, which he’s very scared of, but it’s just a very effective little 15 second shot of the cellar that George is afraid of, whereas the new movie lingers here for 35 minutes.

Laci (00:53:16):

And everything about the newer movies is more cruel and more horror instead of the fears of a child. It misses the fucking point.

Matt (00:53:27):

So the boat is floating down the street in a fucking-

Laci (00:53:31):

Georgi doesn’t smack his head on this construction area. He doesn’t fucking get his arm ripped off in a way that you could see it. And the interaction with him in Pinowise is quick. Georgie only gets scared when he sees the teeth and then it’s just black. It’s so nice that it’s like, oh look, you got this small boy to trust you. It’s weird you’re in a drain You’re saying things about floating, but you’re not affecting your voice so insanely that you seem like you’re an alien. You look like a human in a clown costume.

Matt (00:54:03):

And Tim Curry’s like, his teeth are very prominent, but these are just his human teeth. And for whatever reason, the way it’s lit makes his teeth very prominent and it’s a little bit upsetting. But the cognitive dissonance of, “Well, it’s a clown and a drain, that’s not right, but I’m a dumb kid and I don’t know that this isn’t right, but I can feel something’s a little wrong, but he’s a clown and that rules. And I can hear the calliope music and I could smell popcorn. Oh, gee whiz.” And then Pennywise just reaches out his arm and snatches Georgie’s little army.

Laci (00:54:29):

You know I’m referring to the sharp teeth when I say the

Matt (00:54:32):

Teeth. Yeah,

Laci (00:54:33):

Yeah. Okay.

Matt (00:54:33):

You bring

Laci (00:54:34):

Up the teeth.

Matt (00:54:35):

Because then we get the switch and then see the monster teeth and that’s it.

Laci (00:54:39):

And you know they’re so awkward in Tim Curry’s mouth because the only thing he does when they’re in the mouth, because they’re real is this. He’s like struggling so … It’s like he’s got a big fricking jaw dropper. Nope. Jawbreaker in his mouth that he’s trying to hold between his two. And this movie is different in that it’s not like a six month jump. It’s just not that much of a jump at all to after Georgi’s dead. There is a time jump, but it’s like the school year is still happening.

Matt (00:55:10):

But it skews the cruelty to you, the viewer, because it just cuts right to the funeral and then cuts forward again. And Bill is in George’s room looking through a photo album and then sees a photo of his brother who then winks at him. He throws the photo album and it starts bleeding and the TV broadcast standard says blood, if there’s blood in the movie, it cannot come from a human body. So there’s a lot of blood coming from fortune cookies. Other things. Sinks, photo albums. Yeah.

Laci (00:55:38):

Bill sees it first way before the other kids it seems like because he suffered this horrific trauma, but also because he’s not being given any tools to deal with his pain. In fact, it seems like the most healthy thing ever to go into your brother’s bedroom and want to look at a photo of him or smell his bed or just like sit in there and just remember he existed. And for him, his parents come in and just because he looked at the photo album and the mom got upset, the dad’s like, “Don’t you ever come in here.” The parents just putting their own grief and their own needs so ahead of … They can’t even conceive that Bill could possibly be going through a similar pain. He’s just being a little nuisance.

Matt (00:56:25):

Even it would make it a little better if you just said, “Don’t come in here. It’s too hard on me.

Laci (00:56:30):

” Exactly. Exactly. No, no, you’re punished. In fact, every interaction with those parents is so somber. The only other time you ever see the dad is when he’s yelling at him for touching his stuff.

Matt (00:56:41):

Yeah. So the blood that comes out and his parents come in and the movie pulls this trick a bunch of times is an adult actor, has the blood on them and is not acknowledging it and it fucks with your head as the viewer. Sorry, am I seeing is this real or is this not? Are they playing a trick on him? It’s so cruel, but all they can focus on is this photo album because they don’t see the blood.

Laci (00:57:00):

Because you know the scene is weird, but you’re like, is it weird because the parents seem not fazed by the blood or is it weird because they’re not seeing it at all? And the only time, and I’ve always noticed this ever since I was a little kid, the only time they can’t pull this off is because it is impossible to not slightly flinch if a balloon pops directly in front of your face. So in the library scene where the balloons go down by the readers and they pop and blood goes all over them, every single one of the actors, just a little bit of eh, they try and so I wonder how many takes it took just to even get those.

Matt (00:57:34):

But

Laci (00:57:34):

I’m like, you’re breaking the fourth wall actors. Do they need to replace you?

Matt (00:57:37):

Whenever the blood thing happens, it kind of means a different thing. Right here it is the, we are not talking about George. We’re not properly dealing with it. With Beverly, it’s the fear of becoming a sexual object for my father who is going to be sexually attracted to me. I have to hide that at all cause.

Laci (00:57:54):

Well, and that weird like Carrie thing that Carrie that … Did he write Carrie? Wrote Cary. This idea that a bad parent can weaponize an inevitable thing about your body. They know that you will get a period if you’re a woman. And so it’s like they decide, depending on how you’re acting at the time, I knew you’d get your period because you’re a whore.

Matt (00:58:18):

Yeah, because that’s taking … If you believe the Bible and all that, then that is what you were born broken original sin. We are broken people, especially if you’re a woman or a woman. So yeah, he tells his wife, Audrey, I got to leave. Leave. How can you leave? I got to go because a friend from 30 years ago called me. I made a promise.

Laci (00:58:43):

They instantly know they need to go right then. They all feel that. They feel completely drawn and compelled to dairy magnetically and against any of their actual … I don’t know. I just think it’s so interesting. They all know to drop everything and they can’t even articulate it that they just

Matt (00:59:00):

Fucking

Laci (00:59:01):

Do it. Whatever is here will be here. I have to do this.

Matt (00:59:06):

Do you think the movie does a good enough job of showing that this promise is like it’s kind of a magical problem?

Laci (00:59:12):

It’s a magical … Absolutely. I mean, because

Matt (00:59:14):

They’re- Do you think the movie makes it clear that that’s the case?

Laci (00:59:18):

It is. I don’t know that it needs to be magic. They are so bonded and the feelings rushing over, it’s almost like none of them could have carried with them what happened in dairy into their other lives and then become successful, adjusted-ish people. So they had to completely block it out and just Mike’s existence, that photo in an album you didn’t know existed just lets them know in that one moment, “I will never be able to go back to this life that I’ve made if I don’t fulfill and go back and figure out what is happening back there.” It’s like the realization that they are at a cross Taking point where they need therapy or they need a divorce. I am broken. I keep fucking my life up. I have to make a change. And for them, that’s what I think it stands in for.

(01:00:12):

I just need to handle this. I’ve been pushing it down for 30 years. I just got to do it.

Matt (01:00:16):

Or I’m living someone else’s life and I suddenly got snapped back into the person I actually am. And it’s the way that we all to the childhood versions of ourselves, we both are and are not those people, which is how I feel when I look back on my own life. I both, that is not me and that is me. It’s simultaneously true.

Laci (01:00:35):

Then now we get to see John Ritter, who I love. He’s so-

Matt (01:00:37):

Times man of the year, this architect.

Laci (01:00:40):

Ben Hanscom. He sure is handsome. Yeah, he’s just won an award for architecting and he’s drunk, but it’s a celebratory night. He breaks his award coming out of the limo and he doesn’t care. He seems like a nice guy. You don’t know if he’s an alcoholic or if this is just a special night, so you don’t know that yet.

Matt (01:01:02):

There’s so much drinking in this movie. I love it. They’re always drinking.

Laci (01:01:06):

Because I mean, that is so realistic. These are the echoes. It matters what you put into the machine because it pumps out what you put in and a lot of times it’s alcoholism.

Matt (01:01:18):

No, I mean, when they get together as adults, they’re drinking all the time and it’s not in a bad way.

Laci (01:01:24):

Yes, Matt. They’re all alcoholics. They are substance abusers. All of that is intentional. Stephen King is going through substance abuse as he writes this book.

Matt (01:01:33):

Okay. I don’t think it’s a bad thing that they’re always drinking when they’re together.

Laci (01:01:38):

But they’re always drinking when they’re not together too. Each of them, all of them

Matt (01:01:42):

Have

Laci (01:01:42):

Alcohol, but before they come, every single one of them.

Matt (01:01:46):

That’s true.

Laci (01:01:47):

Okay.

Matt (01:01:47):

That’s

Laci (01:01:47):

True. It’s a statement. He’s got a friend. They’re not partners yet, but they’re about to have some rip-roaring sex. He has the most amazing fucking giant apartment house. He’s done very well for himself. And then he gets the call. He gets the cockblock call from Mike Hamlin.

Matt (01:02:04):

Mike Ann’s little alert went off.

Laci (01:02:07):

And I mean, he’s like, “This is not happening.” To the woman, like, “This will not be happening.

Matt (01:02:13):

I need to leave

Laci (01:02:13):

Now.

Matt (01:02:14):

I want you to come on my leg being.”

Laci (01:02:15):

Now he does not go right away. He instead goes to a skyscraper he owns and does some risky walking and drinking up top and then drops a bottle. If you can’t drop a penny from a skyscraper, imagine who he killed with that bottle.

Matt (01:02:31):

But he also kind of does a Michael Scott like, this city.

Laci (01:02:34):

I think he’s

Matt (01:02:35):

Just trying to figure

Laci (01:02:36):

Out if it’s easier to die right here.

Matt (01:02:38):

And Mike’s like, “Hey, Haystack.” And he’s like, “How did you know that name?” Called me Haystack. We flash back to Ben getting knifed by these greasers.

Laci (01:02:47):

Another interesting thing that they decided to do in the new ones, which is to literally carve a full H into the gut of the child so bad that they had to go get wound supplies. Here, they don’t even break the skin and the fall down the hill is like two flips. That’s all you need. You know how traumatized I am when I fall in our driveway? It doesn’t need to be a big … It just needs to interrupt your day.

Matt (01:03:14):

That is where the broadcast standards I feel are negatively affecting the movie. I think it’s so important.

Laci (01:03:19):

Good.

Matt (01:03:19):

No, it’s so important that these bullies are truly so evil that they’re going to carve into his chest, into his stomach, but that there’s different degrees of evil among the bullies. Like Henry, I don’t know about this.

Laci (01:03:32):

And they get that across in this scene because perfectly the exact thing that happens in the new one happens here except for they don’t go into the skin and he doesn’t freak out about not being able to find his knife because I need to really express to my judge who hits me and this is why I’m like this. They’re like, “No, this guy’s fucking crazy and he’s a little bit crazier or a lot crazier than his other two friends.”

Matt (01:03:53):

What do we think about the actor playing? I mean, it’s always like, this kid is fat.This kid’s not fat at all. Oh,

Laci (01:04:01):

This is the least fucking movie fact thing I’ve ever seen in my life. Yeah.

Matt (01:04:05):

And not only that, and I think this actor does a good job. All the kids are good. And I know it’s annoying that I keep comparing it to the book. The book Ben is the kind of fat kid who wants to be invisible, who’s so introverted, so nerdy, just wants to be reading a book because he would like to disappear. Whereas this guy carries himself with some swagger.

Laci (01:04:24):

He does?

Matt (01:04:24):

Yeah. And it’s like, this guy would be totally fine. And everybody seems to like him except the bullies right away.

Laci (01:04:30):

But he’s a new kid and he’s poor. So he’s going to be a target and he’s just round enough. I’d be into him. I think he’s cute. And it shows you how much adults didn’t care about just obvious shit about how kids work, about how the social structure of a school works, about how public speaking is and how if it’s your brand new first day in a new town, in a new school, maybe you don’t want to stand up in front of the fucking class as you interview me and make me a target. Let me just recede into this class and figure out who these people are before I start talking about myself, Mrs. Asshole. And then when the bully’s interacting with him, she makes it worse by sending him to fucking attention or whatever. The lack of curiosity in the social structure of kids at a school from teachers of this time infuriates me.

(01:05:29):

They made everything worse.

Matt (01:05:30):

I agree, but I don’t know that it’s gotten that much better.

Laci (01:05:34):

I know it has. I mean, us having an awkward kid and us and our kid, at least knowing that they can reach out to a lot of their teachers, maybe our kid’s just lucky, but I think it depends on if you’re in the gifted classes or not of …

Matt (01:05:51):

Bullying, which is in so many of Stephen King’s books, it is like one of those intractable problems that is always going to exist among kids and adults. And it’s like truly, what do you do about this?

Laci (01:06:03):

Well, but there’s that really interesting statistic where it’s like only 10% of people are bullied when they’re younger and that’s because everyone’s made fun of, but you have to be able to be bullied to really be bullied. And sometimes that’s like you’ve got something that makes you a minority and then that … But even then to perceive it later as having been bullied, that’s a specific kind of mentality because I thought everyone was bullied. I mean, I was incessantly, but it made me feel like I deserve … I believed what they said, so I was bulliable.

Matt (01:06:39):

The Tom Arnold movie, Big Bully, directed by Steve Minor of Lake Placid. I think I said this on a Lake Placid episode. I always think about this. He was a bully to Rick Moranis when they were kids and then Rick Moranis leaves town, comes back as a Stephen King-esque writer and a success story and Tom Arnold immediately starts bullying him again. But at a certain point, Tom Arnold talks to Rick Mirandes and he’s like, “What are you talking about? You were my best friend.” And it’s a fascinating insight into the bully mindset. Batman

Laci (01:07:10):

And Robin.

Matt (01:07:11):

I never understood that. I never thought I was bullying you. What are you talking about? We were having fun.

Laci (01:07:17):

Okay. I don’t think Henry here is going to

Matt (01:07:19):

Have any

Laci (01:07:20):

Confusion

Matt (01:07:20):

With it. I agree with that, but that’s just one of the things that makes bullies interesting and you’re big into the bullies are victims too. And they are, of course. And Steven King knows that too, but Henry is also going through a lot of fucking shit

Laci (01:07:35):

And Henry probably has the worst life of all of them because he’s institutionalized and then brutally beaten by the people there that aren’t there to make him better. They’re there to keep him away from the rest of society. I mean, they even go to the point to show you that the orderly who’s mad at him put a roll of quarters in his hand. It’s crazy, Matt. I mean, the kind of devastation he would’ve done to his face and that’s how they treat people who were there for mental illness. It’s fucked up. Okay. So we’re in class, he sees Beverly Marsh. He likes her right away. They have a little bit of a conversation after school and because Henry then starts chasing him as soon as he sees him outside of school, although he had detention, what were you doing outside of school? Ben rolls down the hill and into the area where Bill and Eddie are playing and that’s how they start to form their little losers club.

(01:08:40):

But I don’t know if it’s before or after that where he is staring into, what do they call it? It’s like that weird marshy area that’s outside of where the sewer … The barrens?

Matt (01:08:51):

So the whole area is the barons. I think it’s the standpipe is what it’s called.

Laci (01:08:54):

Okay. Because it’s like wet, but it reminded me so much of that scene and lost where Jack looks up and sees his dad in a full suit perfectly, just exactly wrong looking for the location he’s in the woods or whatever. It’s like that he sees his dad in his beautiful Vietnam dress blues.

Matt (01:09:17):

Korea. Oh,

Laci (01:09:18):

Right.

Matt (01:09:19):

So when he has … Bill and Eddie are building a dam, just some kids building a dam in the water and the bullies are like, “You seen a fat kid?” And they’re like, “No, honest.” And then you have asthma that stupid snatches the inhaler from him and he has an asthma

Laci (01:09:33):

Attack right there. Oh, I try not. I try not to freaking freak out, but that’s one of my biggest things is when someone takes someone’s medicine away, if it’s a kid, I woo.

Matt (01:09:43):

And he’s having an asthma attack and he’s making the wheezing noises and they’re like, “Shut up. Stop that. Stop making that noise.” Yeah. But then they leave and then Ben comes out and Bill’s like, “Can you stay with my friend while I go get him a refill of his inhaler medicine because he’s run

Laci (01:09:56):

Out? “

Matt (01:09:57):

That’s so sweet. It is sweet. It’s sweet

Laci (01:09:58):

That he knows how to go get his prescription for his friend. And then I like how Ben handles it. He’s like, “You’re going to be okay, kid.” Which is probably exactly what Eddie needs right then, not someone feeding into his anxieties, but more somebody saying, “Here’s

Matt (01:10:11):

Reality.” No, you’re right. You’re right. And it is a good bit of adaptation because this is a much bigger deal in the book and it’s where we follow the scene with the book’s perspective is mostly with the seven kids, but occasionally it will drift off and follow another character. And one of the first times it does is it follows the pharmacist when Bill runs in to get the inhaler refill and Bill leaves and the narrator stays with the pharmacist and it’s like the pharmacist is like, “Yep. Hydrox, it’s just water mixed with camp for oil and it’s so interesting. And this isn’t going to get paid off for like 900 pages, this thread, this idea that this is all just a placebo. This is all about belief.

Laci (01:10:53):

So this is another thing that the new movies get wrong. There are these key adults. Most adults are making things worse, but there are these couple of adults that really see kids and actually are trying to see them as people. And one of them is the delightful cop that comes down to the barons and he’s like, ” Hey kids, you know there’s a curfew, people are still going missing. “He’s not being mean to them or anything. He realizes they’re going to come back down here and play after he already saw that they bailed a damn and they’re fucking up the infrastructure of the town, but he likes these kids. He sees them as people and he’s like, ” You guys can come back here but stay together, all of you. Yo promise me, put your hands in. “And they all put their hands in. And that is such a nice moment and it occurred to me, it’s interesting they give him an Irish accent and it’s like, ” Well, I bet as an immigrant, as someone new to this town, as someone different, you’re probably exactly the right person to see these kids as people who have problems too.

(01:11:52):

“Maybe a little more introspective than you’re talked down to, so maybe you can relate to them a bit more. And then the other example is the pharmacist and the new movies, the pharmacist is just like a fucking creep that is into Beverly while she’s distracting them and they get the supplies for the wound where in this one he’s an adult that decides that an 11 year old is old enough to know the truth about his mom That’s a big leap to make and something to do for a kid, but it’s like your mom is making you sick or is …

Matt (01:12:24):

In all versions of the story, he doesn’t totally know how to deliver the … He doesn’t deliver the message well to Eddie and Eddie doesn’t necessarily receive it, but he realizes later I see what you are trying to do.

Laci (01:12:34):

Yes. I’m saying it’s an example of an adult that sees a kid as a person and realizes that at some point that kid needs to know so that they can start adjusting and start thinking of their mom in a more healthy way, meaning put her at arm’s length, doubt the thing she says to you. This woman’s about to grade you for the rest of your life and have a huge influence and maybe you need to know that she’s also a liar.

Matt (01:12:56):

Bill comes back with the asthma medicine, but Ben’s just been nice and talked him out of having his asthma attack, but hey, thanks. And then Bill’s like, ” Hey, I’m Bill and he can’t get the word Eddie out and Eddie’s like, he already knows my name. I listen to Zacher who plays Eddie. I love the Pittsburgh or Baltimore accent that he talks with. He already knows. He knows.

Laci (01:13:19):

Scotty down.

Matt (01:13:21):

So Ben goes home and he writes the-

Laci (01:13:22):

Scotty’s in this movie.

Matt (01:13:23):

Scotty is in this movie, writes the poem for Beverly Marsh. Which

Laci (01:13:28):

I’ve always felt stupid. Your heart burns in my fucking hair.

Matt (01:13:33):

Fuck yourself.

Laci (01:13:34):

Robert Frost.

Matt (01:13:35):

Fucking, what’s his name?

Laci (01:13:37):

Robert Frost.

Matt (01:13:38):

Jim Carroll.

Laci (01:13:39):

Jim

Matt (01:13:39):

Carroll. The sunlight beats on my numb hair.

Laci (01:13:43):

Oh, as I jerk off here in the Bronx. Yeah. Got it.

Matt (01:13:47):

So writes the poem and then his cousin comes in and he’s like, “Hey, what’s your writing? A poem for a girl? Are you gay or something?” And then they get in a little fun.

Laci (01:13:53):

Cause it’s asshole. Yeah, but this is another example of not being believed. That kid came in and being a dick and then he gets caught hitting him and then he’s told, “Guess what? We don’t want you here. You’re just here because we’re being Christians.” That’s fucking horrible to

Matt (01:14:08):

Hear. You’re here because no sister of mine is

Laci (01:14:12):

Going to be on welfare. Okay. Wow, can you- A

Matt (01:14:15):

War widow.

Laci (01:14:16):

Yeah. Give us a little bit more fucking complex about this. We’re not welcome here, but if we leave, you’ll disown us because we’re poor then and your shit fucking kid is going to keep taking my things and then going, “Mom,” whenever he wants to … Believe children, every kid can relate to the kid that ropes you into looking like you did something wrong. God, that’s infuriating. Now-

Matt (01:14:39):

That really is an adult that’s played by Annette O’Toole. Do you know this actress?

Laci (01:14:42):

Only from this.

Matt (01:14:43):

She’s been in a billion things, but I mean, she’s Lana Lane in Superman three. She was on the show Smallville for a billion years, which is a huge show for so many people that I’ve not watched a second enough, but that’s this actress, Adult Beverly.

Laci (01:14:55):

Thank you. You’re welcome.

(01:14:56):

So now it’s her fucking storyline and she’s with a … Well, we see her in the office first. She’s designed some stuff. She’s a famous, I don’t know, a successful clothing designer, but there’s this handsome ’80s man who’s we don’t know his role yet, but her secretary comes in there and says, “Hey, you have a phone call.” He answers for her and says she’s not going to take that call. She then says, “We have time.” And then he again just puts his foot down, but the concern on the face of the secretary, you just know this is always happening and that there’s just this underlying worry about the relation. Is Beverly okay? Because it seems like Beverly’s very sweet and this man rules with an iron fist and he’s her lover, but he’s also working there. Anyway, they’re about to make a deal and sell her clothing line to an Asian company and then he fixes her hair and says, “Don’t touch it and just do what I said and you’re going to knock it out of the park.

(01:15:59):

You fucking whore.” And then we see this resistance in her because as soon as he turns her back, she then puts her hair the other way and sticks her tongue out. She’s even regressing to her childhood self with her tongue sticking out, but she falls in line and goes and holds his hand and walks up and delivers her lines and she’s a good girl and she did a good job. So they have fucking sex and he gives her flowers and all this shit. So I will point out Mike did not cock block this sex. They already had it.

Matt (01:16:32):

Maybe they just didn’t hear when he called earlier.

Laci (01:16:35):

Perhaps. But he would have cock blocked it if she’d answered originally. She’d already been to dairy. But this scene is always so fucked up to me. She starts packing her bag. You already know this isn’t going to go over. He comes back from getting a snack and he is evil and just like it’s been too long, Bevy. You’ve forgotten your manners and he takes out his belt and I never noticed until this watching that he says, “If you put all of your stuff down right now and get back into bed, maybe in two days you can leave instead of two weeks like last time.” I never took that to mean he beat her so badly that she couldn’t show her face for two weeks or that he just trapped her in the house for that long. I always thought that meant maybe you can go to Darien two days.

(01:17:25):

I don’t know. I just didn’t like, fuck, that’s some old fashioned, high level domestic violence there. That is not your every day.

Matt (01:17:37):

These are the characters that Stephen King is really good. This is where you see he understands a thing about evil, about evil, like mundane evil, the way it exists in people because you spend more time with Tom in the book, you get to kind of see the history of their relationship and the way it’s like just he knew something about her the moment he met her. I knew she would be the kind that I’m looking for, the kind who I can teach a lesson and I know it’s fucked up, but Steven King knows that like part of her is also sexually attracted to it- To the

Laci (01:18:10):

Dad.

Matt (01:18:10):

… because he physically abuses her and- And then

Laci (01:18:14):

Takes care of her.

Matt (01:18:15):

And it makes her nipples hard, but he can know all of that and still say that doesn’t mean any of this is okay or that she wants it. She does not want it even if she’s

Laci (01:18:28):

Attracted to it. Well, because they’re also, it’s very implied, I don’t know what it is in the book, that she is also sexually abused by her dad or at least very sexually and appropriately in a boundary list. It feels unsafe in a sexual way by her dad and that’s all it takes. But the thing with child sex abuse that is so fucking confusing and fucks you up is that your body reacts to stimulus the way it does. It just has a few mechanisms and it happens whether you’re asking to be touched or not. So boys can’t help what happens to their body. Women can’t help that their nipples get hard because they’re being fucking abused and the ripples are so vast and so far reaching that the intrusive thoughts that happen when the very act of stimulation is what reminds you of your dad, it’s just such a wrong time to be thinking of him.

(01:19:33):

It ruins your sex life. It can root it for the rest of your life. You might as well be castrated for the kind of torture you’re going to go through when you’re trying to like let your brain go and actually have an orgasm. Good fucking luck, sister.

Matt (01:19:47):

Well, and in the book, they make a point of like he beats her, then he turns nice and they have sex and she does orgasm. Because she

Laci (01:19:58):

Has to.

Matt (01:20:00):

But that it was good sex for her and that that can be turned into like, see, you like this and you are giving your consent to all of this. And I think it’s a credit to Stephen King that he understands that like that’s not true, but people are fucked up and complex and a lot of stuff going on. In the old brain, there’s also the thing that this movie doesn’t do where Eddie marries a woman exactly like his mother.

Laci (01:20:23):

Oh yeah, that’s missing from this, but instead he still lives with her, which is just as fucked up. And this movie implies that he’s like asexual or arrow or something, or he’s trying to admit he’s gay, but it never- Yeah, you

Matt (01:20:36):

Can read it that

Laci (01:20:37):

Way. It just seems like he might be asexual, which is very advanced. I mean, I feel like people didn’t even know people like that existed here, but you can be so coddled and fucked over and mentally tortured by your mom or you’re just born like that. Hat’s totally a thing. Whoa,

Matt (01:20:54):

What is arrow?

Laci (01:20:56):

So ace and arrow, I always get confused. One is that you feel romantic love, but you do not have any desire for physical and the other is that you only have physical interest and don’t feel any romantic feelings just as you live your life and you think something’s wrong with you because you don’t want one or both of those things.

Matt (01:21:18):

The Hanlon call for her is the sign, I can leave you for good. And she physically fights back and then leaves him for good. The change from the novel is that Tom doesn’t pursue her in the novel he does. Tom, Audra, and Henry are like the three interlopers who also follow the kids back to Terry as adults.

Laci (01:21:37):

Audra doesn’t do very much.

Matt (01:21:38):

Go

Laci (01:21:39):

Straight into the deadlights, but

Matt (01:21:40):

… No. Okay. So Bev gets in the cab heading for the airport. Now we see young Bev, her dad yells at her for getting a poem from a boy, getting a poem from a boy like a harlet.

Laci (01:21:53):

Right. It’s just all things that you can’t control are going to be your fault.

Matt (01:21:57):

Well, he rips it up too, rips it up right into it. Rips

Laci (01:22:00):

It up. He slaps the fuck out of her and the makeup’s really good in this. She’s got just enough of like a slap on her face and she’s always wearing red.

Matt (01:22:09):

Yeah. Oh, scarlet

Laci (01:22:10):

Letter.

Matt (01:22:11):

Says slaps. I worry about you a lot, Bevy.

Laci (01:22:15):

Oh, I wanted you to put a note in that. Okay.

Matt (01:22:18):

I sure do. A

Laci (01:22:18):

Pin in that. So this concept of worrying as though it’s like caregiving and I grew up with a mom that was a worrier and her dad was a worrier and it can come across and be coded as like, it’s because I’m a good parent. I’m concerned, but it’s not. It’s selfish because as soon as you tell your kid that you’re worried, you know that the kid knows they need to take care of you. It’s not the same as saying, “I care about you. ” Care means you’re taking the action. Worry means now the kid needs to switch over to doctor or to caregiver and make sure you’re okay. Let’s focus on, “Oh, you worry? Oh, you feel bad? Oh, let me take care of you. ” So it’s worse than neutral. Don’t worry, just be quiet.

Matt (01:23:05):

Yeah. It’s

Laci (01:23:06):

Abusive. It’s mentally

Matt (01:23:08):

Abuse. It’s

Laci (01:23:10):

Controlling. It’s manipulative. I don’t know. It’s not putting the kids first. It’s not good,

Matt (01:23:14):

Folks. It’s the version. I mean, it’s like an early version of weaponizing sort of therapy speak. I worry about you that gives me license to behave the way I want to behave because my worry. Do you want me to worry? This is a valid concern to show how much I care for you. So she goes, she runs outside and Ben finds her crying. He’s like, “Hey, are you okay? Do you want to come since it being Saturday and all? Want to come with me to the Barons?” So he takes her down to the Barons where she gets to meet. Well, they’re all in the only classroom. In

Laci (01:23:43):

The only class,

Matt (01:23:44):

In town, but she sees Bill and she turns into the text every wolf. She’s stomping her foot like, “Oh.” The fucking hardest bursting ever. And Ben very much notices, “Oh, she seems to be turning into a loony tunes-esque wolf in front of me, but okay.” And then Richie and Stan who are like three feet taller than the others, but still in the only class in dairy come out and now they all get to know each other and Ben wants them all to build a dam. How do you know your dam’s going to work? I just know. He just nuts. And

Laci (01:24:16):

Then Richie’s like, “Well, all right then.” And then one of the adorable montages start, “You got to smile so bright.”

Matt (01:24:24):

It’s all right. Yeah,

Laci (01:24:25):

That’s the one. It’s the same thing. It’s all right. Have a good time. Oh, even the song choice is kind

Matt (01:24:33):

Of-

Laci (01:24:33):

Ouch. Yeah. You’re allowed to have joy.

Matt (01:24:36):

And the joy here and I love- It’s

Laci (01:24:38):

Innocent.

Matt (01:24:39):

But I love that what they are doing is so, hey, let’s obstruct the water.

Laci (01:24:45):

But they don’t mean anything by

Matt (01:24:47):

It. It’s curious to

Laci (01:24:49):

Them.

Matt (01:24:50):

You know on our I Love Yo Man episode, how do you make friends? You got to do something together. That’s the thing. You need a project. You need to obstruct the flow of water for a town. I

Laci (01:24:57):

Didn’t know you were like a corporate morale trust fall kind of guy.

Matt (01:25:02):

Oh, that’s who I am. Yes, exactly. Wins

Laci (01:25:06):

Our retreat.

Matt (01:25:07):

It’s only this viewing that I think it crystallized for me that there’s nothing special at all about any of these kids and the reason they’re able to beat Pennywise, anyone could have done it. It was literally just the trauma that he inflicts on people makes them tend to retreat into themselves and hide things and instead they share with each other and just literally I am with my friends. That is literally all that makes them special.

Laci (01:25:36):

Well, then they open up to each other. What makes them special and they say it over and over again is that they all know

Matt (01:25:43):

As a

Laci (01:25:43):

Clump.

Matt (01:25:44):

And me too. And I experienced that too. Yes, you’re not crazy, but it is literally just the basic solidarity. It is people comparing notes and seeing we all have this common thing.

Laci (01:25:54):

For sure. But to say one point of correction, Pennywise is not who is inflicting this on them. Pennywise is the big thing that they get to talk about that they can’t, because they can’t talk about the other thing. They can’t talk about how my parents are not supportive and helpful with my brother having died and I’m lonely. I’m in poverty. My dad’s dead. I’m sexually tormented and physically abused by my dad. None of them are talking about that. That’s still not something you can talk about. Pennywise targets kids who are already having trauma and then sees if he can use that against them. I’m just letting you know, Pennywise isn’t doing this to

Matt (01:26:31):

Them. And it works with that because-

Laci (01:26:36):

Usually

Matt (01:26:37):

That’s further isolated. He is finding somebody in like, “I’m going to turn to the fucking teenage werewolf in front of you. And if you go say to people, the teenage werewolfs after me, they’re going to fucking laugh at you. So you’re probably not going to say anything.”

Laci (01:26:47):

Right. I’m targeting kids that have a low support system and that’s true because they’re already feeling isolated and different from the other kids because they’re being abused.

Matt (01:26:56):

And then even, “My dad is abusing me and a werewolf attacked me. ” Okay, kid, whatever. Crazy.

Laci (01:27:03):

Well, I mean, and that’s what Stephen King is saying is it might as well be that ridiculous as to the likelihood of any other adult caring, believing or doing anything about the thing that’s happening at home behind closed doors that are none of mine, nevermind.

Matt (01:27:17):

And in many cases, literally right out in the street because that is what we all do. I mean, the crime isn’t always going to be kids getting beaten up by bullies having their chests carved or like the one black kid in town being racially bullied by these white greasers, but we see homeless people all the time. We know about immigrants getting raided poverty, homelessness, people not having health insurance. These are all crimes that the state is committing and we don’t do anything about them. Fucking

Laci (01:27:48):

Food stamps being suspended because of the government shutdown. You know what I mean? People that’s going to fuck over.

Matt (01:27:53):

We put it aside we don’t think about it until it’s a horror movie.

Laci (01:27:57):

Until it’s at your front door.

Matt (01:27:59):

Then this thing with Beverly in her bathroom where the blood is coming out, she does not want to scream for her dad, but she has to and he does not see it. I worry about you, Bev. What are you screaming about?

Laci (01:28:09):

And then he even touches her face. It’s just a further … He violates her space and he leaves his mark on her and he just happens to have blood on his hands this time. But it’s like she always feels his touch. If someone who is touched in a boundaryless way will always feel it. You just know it’s happening. He’s like, “Ah, caressed. I was caressed.”

Matt (01:28:32):

Eddie as an adult is not married. He lives with his mom apparently in an enormous mansion because he runs a very successful limo company in New York City and he’s got the Al Pacino account this week and even he has his own sort of swagger when he’s away from his mom when he’s talking to his employee. He got the dreaded Hanlon call. He has to go back to Maine. We go back in time, see the kids at the movie theater, seeing the teenage werewolf movie where they accidentally and then on purpose drop the popcorn and theology. I would’ve

Laci (01:29:04):

Killed Richie. Popcorn’s fine. They’ll get over it. A drink, Richie. Yeah,

Matt (01:29:10):

You would not have been okay with

Laci (01:29:11):

This. If you had already seen the werewolf Richie, you wouldn’t be acting like this. I want you to know that.

Matt (01:29:16):

So to run, they run away to the barons. They probably, one of them sees something odd in the barons. Oh no. And then they go back and there’s the scene where they’re all just walking and they walk by Eddie’s house and drop him off and he says, “Guys, I wish this summer would never end, my friends.” And then his mom comes out and he’s like, “Oh, you fucking stupid kids. Get out of here.”

Laci (01:29:40):

Just because you play with my son, your asshole animal pieces of shit.

Matt (01:29:45):

We’ll see you tomorrow, Eddie. Eddie needs to rest tomorrow. Yeah.

Laci (01:29:49):

He’s clearly going to be tired then.

Matt (01:29:51):

And she says, he’s like, “Mom, those are my friends. You don’t need any friends other than your old mom.”

Laci (01:29:56):

Right. And I want you to do this, this and this, and also don’t shy … Hour at school this week because you’ll get germs.

Matt (01:30:04):

You’ll get a cold.

Laci (01:30:05):

You get a cold, which it is a requirement at this and in 1960 it would’ve still been a requirement for health reasons that any kid who takes phys ed, it’s not a requirement for a kid to take it. But if they take it, they have to shower after. That was a thing. And it wasn’t until the ’70s, ’80s, really 2000s until it was all the way gone showering at school. But I looked it up after watching this fucking coach stop him in the hall and say, “Tut, tut, Eddie, I noticed you didn’t shower.”

Matt (01:30:37):

I can smell you. Either I can smell you or I was in there watching. I

Laci (01:30:41):

Noticed. Well, it’s actually, they have to watch. You take phys ed, you got to shower. He’s even saying the exact thing that it says in the thing I looked up. So he goes in the shower and who wouldn’t be intimidated in a giant communal shower? And it’s just very effective. It’s just that the shower head’s just elongate and go get him. And I like this scene because it’s so simple.

Matt (01:31:05):

Oh, it’s great. And it is shot exactly like the shower scene from Psycho. He’s even posing like Janet Lee. He is washing his body the same way she does because you’re making a shower scene in a horror movie, you have to. But there’s lots of shower scenes in high school gyms and horror movies because I think that this is something we said that we didn’t … Sometimes we’ll talk and not record it. We both went to high schools where you didn’t take a shower, but there were showers in

Laci (01:31:30):

The locker room. There were ghosts. And they would always be kind of like decrepit and not taken care of because it’s a state funded school.You’re not going to take facilities out. You just put some stalls in and Pretendo was always having toilets in there. But it just makes you think about it like, “Oh, guess people used to fucking shower near. That’s weird. Right?” And it’s just over time we learned more about germ spreading and what actually is needed to be clean and stuff, but mostly it was social norms changed around us understanding that kids could be sexualized and groomed and made vulnerable with the negatives at some point outweighed the positives. But it’s just so funny because it’s like, duh, of course the kids know it. No one’s looking forward to the shower. That’s why it’s in so many horror movies. It’s horrific. I mean, what about like non-binary people or people going through body dysmorphia where they didn’t even know what was going on with them, but they’re naked in front of … You don’t even have the words or you’re a lesbian and you’re not out, but one day you want to come out and then you’re going to be accused of showering with women.

Matt (01:32:46):

We didn’t shower, but it was certainly like, okay, change into your gym clothes. And if you went into the stall, oh, you’re a loser. Our

Laci (01:32:53):

Kid goes in the stall.

Matt (01:32:54):

But yeah, these shower scenes will still appear in movies because they’re all written by people who probably did grow up having to shower in high

Laci (01:32:59):

School. And we’re all traumatized by it. It was always- Exactly. And it’s just like a great little example of how adults don’t think of kids as people or understand where the line goes between toddler and like, no, fully conscious and like body conscious, self-conscious, socially conscious because … So then they’re just thinking, “Just take your bath. It’s that

Matt (01:33:20):

Time.” Well, and also like, well, I did it.

Laci (01:33:22):

Go have your … Fine, but it’s like, go have your communal bath. Wawa. You just do it. Okay.

Matt (01:33:30):

All of that aside, I cannot think of a more miserable thing than having to shower and then get dressed and go to class. I’d be sweating my fucking ass off. It’d be disgusting and smell like deodorant. Ew. Okay. I need like an hour to recover from a shower. I know you

Laci (01:33:44):

Do.

Matt (01:33:45):

I just love this. There’s a lot of stop motion in the movie. The stop motion effect of Pennywise- Peeling back. Fully peeling open the towel. So he can come out of it and just, “Hey Eddie, I’m a fucked up clown. What is that doing for you? ” So I mean, I guess that what he is doing is like the physical it is in the sewers and he’s just projecting out these visions just to fuck with these people, but also kind of entice them to come down to where I live.

Laci (01:34:15):

Right. Just letting you know if you ever get real pissed about all these visits I’m giving you, here’s my card.

Matt (01:34:22):

I guess. I’m

Laci (01:34:22):

Down here. I mean, he’s giving them a hint, right?

Matt (01:34:26):

Richie Tosier is the most successful comedian in the world and he’s played by Harry Anderson from Nightcort.

Laci (01:34:31):

Who was also a standup comic.

Matt (01:34:34):

Was he?

Laci (01:34:34):

Yeah.

Matt (01:34:34):

Are you sure about, he was a magician.

Laci (01:34:36):

That’s the same thing. Because

Matt (01:34:37):

You

Laci (01:34:37):

Do jokes while you do it.

Matt (01:34:38):

So he’s back in his dressing room and he gets a call as like a million people are vying for, “Here’s champagne. Oh.”

Laci (01:34:44):

Hold this child.

Matt (01:34:45):

Kis it. And Mike Hamlin is so on top of things he even knows to call him here at the dressing room tonight show or whatever this is. Well,

Laci (01:34:53):

And this guy’s such a celebrity.He answers his own phone. Have people to do that?

Matt (01:34:58):

Talk to me. Richie. It’s Mike Hanlin. He’s like, “Oh fuck. Mike Hanland.” So cut ahead. “Hey, I got to drop everything and go to Maine.” And his manager, whoever’s like, “But he is so successful, he is guest hosting the Tonight Show for Johnny Carson every Monday. And he says, Let Leno do it. An ominous prediction for what would happen. I think the next year was 91 is when Leno took over. Why do you want to go back to Maine? Is it abroad the mob?” And Richie says, “I don’t really remember. I just got to. I just got to. ” Before I ever saw this movie or read the book, I knew the premise of like seven adults have to go back because of a promise they made. And it always was like, who gives a fuck about a promise?

Laci (01:35:39):

People do that.

Matt (01:35:40):

But that’s not what it is. It’s a magic promise.

Laci (01:35:42):

Oh, so now you feel vindicated that you’re

Matt (01:35:45):

An

Laci (01:35:45):

Asshole?

Matt (01:35:46):

In the past, the kids are listening to Bill tell a story because they know Bill’s going to be a swell writer and he’s like, “Guys, this is a story about a group of people whose power as a collective defeats the evil dragon using their stones.”

Laci (01:35:59):

Magic stones.

Matt (01:36:01):

Boy, Bill, you sound like a real good writer.

Laci (01:36:04):

Life before normal TV. Am I right? Laying in the woods.

Matt (01:36:08):

Listening

Laci (01:36:09):

To your friend.

Matt (01:36:11):

I would do this with Elliot and only later learned because I didn’t always want to hear you just tell me stories that you made. You

Laci (01:36:17):

Fucking loser.

Matt (01:36:18):

I know. So Bill is then like, “Guys, I have to tell you something really serious.” And then the Irish cop, “Oh, what you doing downer.” Oh,

Laci (01:36:29):

Jesus Lucifer Mary and Joseph.

Matt (01:36:32):

And tells him if you can- Hello. If you kids are going to come down to the street- You

Laci (01:36:39):

Better bring me lucky charms.

Matt (01:36:41):

You got to do it together. These are dangerous times. In the book in the book, this cop also tells them, “By the way, that stream you’re standing in all, you spent so much time standing in- ” It’s gray

Laci (01:36:53):

Water.

Matt (01:36:54):

It’s gray. It’s filled with poop.

Laci (01:36:56):

Look pretty good.

Matt (01:36:57):

And this is also a thing that recurs in Stephen King a lot is people standing in poop water is Shawshank Redemption. You

Laci (01:37:03):

Got to get down in the shit, man.

Matt (01:37:05):

A maximum overdrive, which I just watched. It’s just a thing for him is having to interact with fecal water. Swear out to me, children, so they all put in their hands.

Laci (01:37:17):

Sweet.

Matt (01:37:18):

Yeah. Then they’re back at school, which is so weird that they’re also going to school at the same time. Richie crosses paths with the bullies and then creates a whole mess in the cafeteria and then the principal yells at him. But it’s not just any principle. This principle is played by William B. Davis, a. K.a. The cigarette smoking man from the X-Files. What’s he doing here? Well, this was in Vancouver and he’s like Canadian acting royal. You got to get a Canadian in this movie if you want your- That’s what

Laci (01:37:46):

I’m always saying.

Matt (01:37:46):

But it is just so weird to see him before X files and just this nothing role. I’m the angry principal. Go get the janitor Toja. Are you kidding

Laci (01:37:54):

Me? That’s in his real. That’s how he got the gig.

Matt (01:37:57):

And so Britie has to go get the janitor who is Beverly’s father, but he can’t find him anywhere and then runs into a werewolf. And then he runs back into the captain. He’s like, “Help, help werewolf.” And everybody laughs at him.

Laci (01:38:08):

And even he’s going to look at the rest of them are all mopey. It’s like, yeah, your personality changes after you’ve been abused at him. All right. Now we meet the seventh. Mike, the librarian. He’s not a librarian. Because

Matt (01:38:22):

You might’ve noticed it’s like an hour into this movie and that black … This is a very white group of kids.

Laci (01:38:27):

So I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s like a report day or something because Mike isn’t a new kid, but he stands up in class and he’s showing the history of dairy and trying to show all these white people and this white teacher like, look, the history of dairy is fucked up. You want to go into the 1900s? You want me to go a little further? It doesn’t get any better. Look at how bad the history is. So this movie gets it right that it should be the black character who does this role. And the teacher later when they’re adults are like, “Yeah, she didn’t want to hear the truth.” It’s like, yeah. But the teacher’s like, thanks for that morbid history or whatever.

Matt (01:39:03):

So

Laci (01:39:03):

Dismissive.

Matt (01:39:04):

But this kid, I’m sure this is happening in every classroom every single day because any town, anywhere in the world, you’ll find out like, oh, there was all kinds of shit that happened in this town that you don’t know about, but you can just go research it. Or the kid who reads Howard Zen, people’s history of the United States is like, “Did you know that the Tulsa massacre or whatever other thing it is? ” And if you bring it up, the teacher’s like, “That’s not polite to bring

Laci (01:39:30):

Up.” Anywhere. Okay, that’s not a warm reception of his facts, but then he’s leaving school and then he gets cornered by the bullies and it called the N word and they’re solely upset with him for daring to be black and they slapped his pictures out of his hand and that’s fucking mean and those are really important to him. Something distracts him enough or the bully’s enough for him to snatch it back out of the hand and just run like fucking hell. And that is the theme with most of these kids. Well, I guess just two of them. Two of them run until they meet this group, but it’s always like breaks my heart. I mean, he’s running for a long time and then has to jump a barbed wire fence, does it beautifully and then run some more. And by the time he reaches the other six, all he can muster is say, “Help me.

(01:40:24):

” And he falls to the ground and they all don’t even bat an eye. They just help him. And I love the rock scene in both movies,

Matt (01:40:32):

The

Laci (01:40:32):

Rockfight scene.

Matt (01:40:33):

Yeah, it’s great. I wish he were homeschooled. I wish they didn’t already know him because it is a little … I kind of love the sort of just supernatural, like we are instantly connected to this person we have never met. We just know.

Laci (01:40:48):

But they don’t seem to know him very well.

Matt (01:40:50):

But I mean, if he’s in their class, then they at least know who he is.

Laci (01:40:53):

Yeah, but the cosmic instant magic part is that he runs into them, that they all run into each other, that Beverly runs from our house, but ends up just being seen by Ben and he brings them to them. It’s at their most traumatic moments typically they’re taken up by a friend or run into their friend.

Matt (01:41:13):

Yeah. And so they’re instantly like, “Well, we’ll fucking…” Bill gets the premonition, like, “We need rocks. Get rocks. They all get rocks and just throw them at the bullies and it works.” All you have to do to a bully is throw rocks at them. Well, actually, no, they won’t- Just

Laci (01:41:28):

Unitedly

Matt (01:41:29):

Stand

Laci (01:41:29):

Against them.

Matt (01:41:30):

And it’s still, the bullies are going to come back. They’re plotting their revenge, but they overpower them for now and take on the name. We are the losers club. Welcome to the losers club. And I noticed the camera does this thing where they’re all standing in formation looking off at the bullies running away and the camera does a warner tracking each one of them as the … This is when they’re formally solidified as a seven piece club and the movie will use that trick a bunch of different times to whenever it needs to solidify the bond is it will track all of them without cutting. So then they’re hanging out on the crane talking about … Well, because Mike has his history of dairy and he’s like, “Look, it’s the 1700s and there’s this fucked up clown coming to town in lots of pictures.” And then in the photo album, Pennywise literally comes to life in the photo album and looks at them and is like, “I’m going to kill you all your fuckers.”

Laci (01:42:22):

But it’s special because this is the first time that it all happens in front of each other.

Matt (01:42:26):

Yeah. And this is where- And

Laci (01:42:28):

It’s the first time Stan sees it because he’s still at this point being like, “It’s empirically impossible.” He’s still, he’s the only holdout.

Matt (01:42:35):

They have to give him some sort of characterization so he’s the skeptic. Albert Einstein would say, “No, this is not so. ” But he’s the last one to personally encounter Pennywise, but this is where they’re literally saying like, “I thought it was just me. You’re not alone.” That’s the whole thing.

Laci (01:42:52):

Right. Time has come to spend some time with Stan and we learn quickly that he’s a sex maniac and he’s married to an 80-year-old woman who he is not impregnated yet. She’s fine. She’s age appropriate. I’m just not turned on by her, but it’s fine. He’s sitting there and his wife, he’s sitting in the living room with his wife. She’s doing some sewing. He’s reading the paper. They’re both watching Perfect Strangers. It’s

Matt (01:43:18):

Like a normal evening for you and I. You knit. I read the paper. It’s

Laci (01:43:22):

Perfect. We’re the Atlantic, but they’re a cute couple and she mentions-

Matt (01:43:27):

I would not read the Atlantic, that rag, that genocide support. This is the Atlanta Journal Constitution. He lives in Atlanta.

Laci (01:43:33):

I’m so glad you interrupted me for that. Thank you. It’s really interesting. But she says, “My mom called again and she wants to know when I’m going to make her a grandmother.” And he’s like, “How about right now?” And then he announces he’s a sex maniac and girls and he’s ravenous. He’s all over. And then the treaded Mike block happens and the phone and he goes in and he’s like, “Well, hi, Mike. How

Matt (01:44:01):

You doing?” He has my favorite reaction.

Laci (01:44:03):

Because he’s the one that’s always been in denial. He’s the one that can’t handle it. It is the most human. How are you doing?

Matt (01:44:13):

Mike, Stan, it’s come back. Oh.

Laci (01:44:18):

What’s that?

Matt (01:44:19):

Are you sure?

Laci (01:44:21):

Did you check?

Matt (01:44:22):

Please, no. But yeah. So we finally get to spend some time with him. He’s the one who is least equipped to handle all of this. What makes him able to do it is literally just he is in the physical presence of his friends and he trusts them. And when he’s an adult, the thing calls for peer pressure. Well, but it is peer pressure, but the peer pressure that will make you feel strength. And he kills himself now as an adult because he’s not with them. He’s physically not with them anymore.

Laci (01:44:53):

Right. He was the last to kind of be pulled in each time and he was the last person to believe that it was a thing, that he’s the last person to see it, all the things. So he is the one out of all the kids that his fundamental beliefs of the universe gets shooken, gets shaken. He was on the least steady ground. He needs things to be exactly as he knew him and it existing, totally flipped that around. So he’s the person who needed to forget dairy the most and it only took remembering it existed to totally send him into …

Matt (01:45:30):

Because it was the hardest for him to confront Pennywise in a way he was the bravest one because he was the most scared, but he still did it anyway. But knowing how hard it was for him, it will be the hardest for him to do it again. It’s almost like I did it once. It will be impossible for me to do it again. The fact that I did it is proof that I can’t do it again because I know what it takes. And I know I don’t have it in me to do it again.

Laci (01:45:55):

Yeah. And to leave your wife like that, to leave her to see that is rough. I don’t know. He’s true to what he was as a child.

Matt (01:46:09):

Guys, we’re in part three now, although we’re still talking about part one. That’s

Laci (01:46:12):

Why my clothes have changed. I like to help with the continuity of the podcast. We get a better cast if we record over two days, but because of things we had to record over three and I don’t want to wear that black shirt anymore this week. So look at me now internet.

Matt (01:46:30):

If we get to a certain level of Patreon, we’ll finally hire the script supervisor we need who can keep track of continuity. We don’t want plot holes. No, no. All right. So what’s going on in this movie? Well-

Laci (01:46:42):

It’s time for some sewer rat shit.

Matt (01:46:44):

They go down into the sewers, Henry and Belch follow them in and they snatch Stand because of course it’s useless Stan. If Bill got snatched, they’ll be like, “Bel, no we’re tad.” But they get Belch. No, they get Stan and Belch belches into his face and that’s the most disgusting thing that happens in the movie. Ew. I’d so much rather be farted on my face than burped on my face. Yeah.

Laci (01:47:06):

I really

Matt (01:47:07):

Would. Is that

Laci (01:47:07):

Because the food still kind of smells like food when

Matt (01:47:09):

It goes out?

Laci (01:47:10):

Yeah. That makes sense.

Matt (01:47:15):

Well, penny wise, Henry and Belch are literally just going to murder- But

Laci (01:47:19):

Shit particles that are-

Matt (01:47:21):

I don’t

Laci (01:47:21):

Care. You’re going to get pink eye.

Matt (01:47:24):

No, I’m

Laci (01:47:24):

Not. Actual poop floating around you.

Matt (01:47:26):

Worth it to not get burped on. That’s gross. You’re going to get- No,

Laci (01:47:30):

No.

Matt (01:47:31):

You’re going to

Laci (01:47:31):

Get

Matt (01:47:32):

Stink eye.

Laci (01:47:33):

No. Okay.

Matt (01:47:34):

So they’re literally going to murder Stan with their knife.

Laci (01:47:38):

Right. I still don’t know that the other two are sure that’s what’s going to happen. They’re still … And they’re not coming out, but it’s only Henry saying those things and they’re like, “Yeah.”

Matt (01:47:48):

And he’s literally, he’s making no mystery about it. And when I’m done murdering you, you will be murdered forever and in hell.

Laci (01:47:54):

Yeah. But you know what? Belch must have a really good lawyer because he’s not guilty of saying admitting anything. He only speaks in belches.

Matt (01:48:03):

You keep that mouth shut sunlized. It’s too burp.

Laci (01:48:06):

Yes.

Matt (01:48:07):

And the law is neutral on what a burp means. PannyWise comes and gets him through the best looking thing in the movie, the fucking pipe lighting up. Sucks Stan in or sucks Belch in the great body collapsing thing, which is just have some dummy legs underneath him getting pulled in. Looks awesome.

Laci (01:48:26):

Yeah. And I love the perfect sound effect of the lights. Yes, yes, it is. All the things. And it’s the first time Stan looks into the deadlights and I don’t remember what interrupts it. Probably somebody from the losers club.

Matt (01:48:40):

He and Henry look at each other like, “This is scary.” We’re on the

Laci (01:48:43):

Same team

Matt (01:48:44):

Now. And Stan runs away, “Guys, guys.” And they’re like, “Look, it sounds like Stan. That’s Stan’s Yelp.” And he meets up with them and Pennywise, “Well, Georgie comes out, Bill, you killed me, Bill. I hate you. ” And then Pennywise turns into each of their greatest fears, abusive dad, Wolfman, et cetera.

Laci (01:49:04):

Richie, you need to get a better fear,

Matt (01:49:06):

Man. He really does. So they start trying their things including the great, “This is battery acid, you bastard with shooting.” Which

Laci (01:49:14):

Totally works when he’s a kid.

Matt (01:49:16):

I know. The movie knows it’s good because it’ll replay this several times in part two.

Laci (01:49:22):

But it doesn’t work as an adult and it gets him killed.

Matt (01:49:25):

Well,

Laci (01:49:25):

Yeah. Sorry, spoiler.

Matt (01:49:27):

But works as a moment. Works as a hell yeah. And the only thing I like about the final encounter with the kids and Pennywise in the new movie, well, in the 2017 one when they’re kids, is when they each just take a turn beating the shit out of him with a bat. That’s fun.

Laci (01:49:41):

That’s a good time.

Matt (01:49:42):

Yes. It’d be good if you could see it better, but still. Battery acid, you slime and Tim Curry’s makeup is just wonderful with his face fucking melting off. And then Beverly shoots it with a silver bullet.

Laci (01:49:55):

I love the cheesy 90s or 90 efforts. Efforts they make with TV screens and whatever the fuck it is they’re doing. It’s just a bright ass light that shines out of them with these weird little edges that look just like if he moved a little bit, they’d go right off of his face. The graft thing they’re trying their best.

Matt (01:50:17):

When she shoots him here, he’s in clown form or is he in something else?

Laci (01:50:20):

Clown form.

Matt (01:50:21):

Yeah, because he’s a spider later when they’re adults and she shoots him. But I like that they all can agree. So did we do it? Is it over? Some of them- Listen to the

Laci (01:50:32):

Gurgle.

Matt (01:50:33):

The mats of the group are like, “Yeah, I think we can go. I think this is it. “

Laci (01:50:36):

They barely got in this sewer. I mean, just by this sexual tension Bev had to offer all of them is how they got in there. And so them going down by the drain pipe and just hearing burp. Yeah, that’s definitely the sound of a kit dying. Everyone out. So if it’s actually true that Stan is the last person to see it, why then would that not have started a whole … Are they saying that he saw it and it chased them on the bike and then they did the sewer stuff? Yes. Okay. I thought it meant that he came back just get a litle scared and say- No, just a little cameo. But that was fine because Stany did it.

Matt (01:51:15):

No.

Laci (01:51:16):

Okay. Got it. Might be.

Matt (01:51:18):

They go out into the world and they do their group hug and then swear it, swear to me. Swear

Speaker 3 (01:51:23):

To the baby.

Matt (01:51:24):

If he ever comes back, we’ll all come back. I promise. And Stan is the last one to promise. I know.

Laci (01:51:28):

And that’s why I’m worried about Richie’s safety when he’s the last one to promise and that when they’re adults, Richie. We’re running out of people to kill.

Matt (01:51:37):

They don’t swear it in blood as they do in the book.

Laci (01:51:42):

What about semen?

Matt (01:51:44):

No semen either. The only thing stronger than blood.

Laci (01:51:47):

This opportunity.

Matt (01:51:48):

Swear to come back. Stan, he’s the last one to say it. And then in the present, this is in a cut with a very, very creepy scene of Stan’s wife going upstairs like, “Stuntley, I’m coming to scrub your back.” Oh, and front. And more.

Laci (01:52:01):

And front and more. But she has a very realistic heartbreaking discovery reaction. I don’t like it.

Matt (01:52:10):

No, no.

Laci (01:52:11):

Don’t fucking mock it. I think she does a good job. You know how hard it would be to act that? I

Matt (01:52:17):

Just did it. Oh no.

Laci (01:52:18):

You’re as good as fucking Princess layover.

Matt (01:52:20):

My plan has been blown off.

Laci (01:52:22):

All right. Carrie Fisher, calm down. Pop another quailud with that fucking low energy performance.

Matt (01:52:27):

Dead by suicide with it written on blood, and that’s the end of night one.

Laci (01:52:32):

That was a little extra performance Stan. You didn’t have to do that. I think we know why you killed yourself.

Matt (01:52:38):

Yeah, I wonder about is this like-

Laci (01:52:40):

He’s like with his wrist. He’s like, “This is perfect. This is going to be on the cover of the movie, I bet.”

Matt (01:52:45):

Or is it almost involuntary as he dies, it’s just the DMT hitting his …

Laci (01:52:51):

We’ll never know.

Matt (01:52:52):

But it’s none of our business really.

Laci (01:52:53):

It’s not. We shouldn’t even have the chatter out of school.

Matt (01:52:58):

All

Laci (01:52:58):

Right.

Matt (01:52:58):

Adult Bill and his ponytail arrive in town, no luggage, visits his brother’s grave and then Pennywise comes out of a grave. He’s like, “Look here, Sunny. I’ve dog seven graves and one of them’s already filled.” And then Bill goes to the library where sees a display of Bill Denbro books, including Naw, The Smile and the Glowing.

Laci (01:53:16):

The glowing.

Matt (01:53:18):

And Bill and Mike reunite the first of the losers to reunite as

Laci (01:53:22):

Adults. All the reuniting works for me. My heart is warmed. I love all of it. I love all the interactions with Bill and Mike. They are just genuinely enjoying each other. They’re both the biggest sweeties of the group, have the most heart. So I just like that that’s there. Let’s go ride on my bike.

Matt (01:53:41):

Because it’s a specific … I’m reuniting with a friend who I had an intense bond with and really we were only friends for a couple months and that was

Laci (01:53:48):

That.

Matt (01:53:49):

But it was the most important few months of my life. And then, “Hey, I’m here. Hey, you’re here. I know it’s you. I know it’s you. Wow.”

Laci (01:53:55):

You know what I went through back then. Can you tell me? Yeah. There is always a special place for people who knew you when you were little because that’s your only chance of really fully remembering some stuff is that they’re going to fill in some of the gaps. You just want someone to document those times you were without adults as a kid.

Matt (01:54:16):

Bill, it’s not all coming back to him at once. It drips and drabs and he’s like, “Oh, I remember something. This place we’re standing in right now, this was poor town.” And Mike’s like, “Still is, ” and then walks into his house right there.

Laci (01:54:28):

So that’s why all the stuff of them as adults is what I feel an analogy of them finally realizing they got the call, they do need to go to therapy. They do need to finally work out all this shit. I’m a successful adult, but I’m stuck. I’m not thinking of having children. I’m not in a totally committed relationship or I’m in a bad one. Why am I 40 and I can’t seem to cross these barriers? What is it? So their realization they need to do a therapy a. K.a. Dairy and that’s what these are. You recover memory slowly, things come to you slowly and I think that’s for the reason why they don’t remember everything at once and they don’t get better all at once. And I think at the very end when Bill is able to save-

Matt (01:55:13):

Audra.

Laci (01:55:13):

Audra in a way that he couldn’t save his brother. I think that’s his final breakthrough and that’s why he gets to complete therapy and go home.

Matt (01:55:21):

And just like real yuppie’s going to therapy, most of them are going to forget all that shit and go back to being pieces of shit in their real lives. Well,

Laci (01:55:27):

That’s the good thing about therapy. It’ll let you pay for it again.

Matt (01:55:30):

Well, yes. And you’re probably going to do it wrong too and just say things and just it’s all a big justification. You’ll get the language to justify why you’re a bad person.

Laci (01:55:38):

Okay. That sounds like some projection and I’m going to note that. But no, I think people who opt to go to therapy on their own and it’s not because a lot of people suggested it heavily, I think they do therapy. Yeah,

Matt (01:55:52):

But most people aren’t that. Most people are not going to therapy for anything. Let’s talk

Laci (01:55:55):

About those motherfuckers. I’m saying that all of these kids decided they deserve to have better lives.

Matt (01:56:01):

So they go into Mike’s house and he’s like, “Look, I’ve got beers. Oh, thank God. Beers. Okay. They drink their beers and guess what else I got? Your old bike, Silver. Hi, host Silver away.” Silver is the most obnoxious thing from the book because it’s just Stephen King jacking off over the Lone Ranger and then-

Laci (01:56:17):

Jacking onto him too,

Matt (01:56:19):

I bet. And guess what else I got? Playing cards so you can put them on your bicycle and make the Nito noise.

Laci (01:56:26):

You’re being a dick. It is all so sweet. It all works so well for me. Shut your

Matt (01:56:30):

Damn mouth. He’s like the dirty dancing episode.

Laci (01:56:32):

Because

Matt (01:56:32):

You’re all- What is our podcast? He’s not just making jokes.

Laci (01:56:37):

That’s what you think this is? Yeah, it’s a joke. I’m going to be needing another- It’s chucklicious. Kind of clearly I need to be visited by some-

Matt (01:56:44):

By three ghosts.

Laci (01:56:48):

I like that Mike is kind of magical that he’s the only one that stayed in this town and he remembers, but he also seems to be someone that just has this ability to know what the whole group needs in advance, even if he doesn’t understand why he’s going to go get something or do something. He buys the little patch to fix a tire before he ever gets a bike and he goes 10 years ago, either kill myself or go find some silver earrings. And I don’t know. I like that dairy kept him a little bit magical.

Matt (01:57:17):

On Stephen King’s list of favorite things to write about magical black man is magical black person, because actually it’s usually a black woman.

Laci (01:57:24):

Damn it.

Matt (01:57:24):

He loves a mother Abigail in the stand as just the embodiment of goodness. His big mama who will cook for you.

Laci (01:57:32):

Did he write the color purple?

Matt (01:57:34):

No.

Laci (01:57:34):

Oh, thank God. Okay. That’s not one of those magical black women, right? Okay, great.

Matt (01:57:39):

No. Well, he’s like, “Oh, playing card’s great. Oh shit. I dropped some of them and the Asis Bades and Pennywise is on the most poogie.”

Laci (01:57:48):

We’re both seeing this together.

Matt (01:57:51):

My least favorite part of every version of it is now we have to watch each one of them in succession go encounter Pennywise and it’s so fucking scary. It’s

Laci (01:57:58):

Fast though. I mean, it’s much faster than the other, but the library one probably is my favorite one just because he’s such an asshole with his little girl, this little clown crank thing.

Matt (01:58:12):

Yeah, he is our kid anytime I try to talk to anyone, just screaming. “Hey, I see you’re not paying attention to me. How fucking dare you? You’re not having … Because I can’t talk if something else is going on. I can’t do it.

Laci (01:58:26):

No, I can’t either. Yes, agreed. We’re so alike. All right. Now it’s time for adult Ben to be weird with children. And so he gets the cab driver, he pulls in and everyone turns a little magical the longer they’re there as well because Bill says he can feel it every time someone crosses the state line or whatever the … I think that’s neat. All right. He says,” Pull over. That’s the Barron’s. I want to go explore and keep the car running. “And he goes down and he’s-

Matt (01:58:58):

It’s like the one location we have for this movie, so can I go look at it?

Laci (01:59:01):

Use it. He just goes down there and it picks up a rock and he’s looking at the creek and then wouldn’t you know it some little shits are chasing another chubby kid and the cycle just continues. The bullying doesn’t stop. Dairy is not better, but the kid falls, barely hurts himself, Jesus Christ. And he lifts up his pant leg, let me see.

Matt (01:59:25):

Let me see. He’s touching this kid a lot. He’s just

Laci (01:59:28):

A very touchy man. Very touching him. He is a touchy man. But he says things that are not weird, so that’s fine. And then he gives him the hanky to wrap around. He’s like, ” This kid is fine, but he seems to need something. He needs a bobo. What? No. A bumbo? A wobby. He needs a wobby.

Matt (01:59:45):

All

Laci (01:59:45):

Right. Something to hold onto.

Matt (01:59:46):

No, this kid’s leaving this encounter being like, “That guy’s fucked up.”

Laci (01:59:49):

He’s probably just gave me AIDS with this fucking durag thing.

Matt (01:59:52):

Each time that Pennywise shows up, he is telling them, “Go away, turn around. It’s not too late turn around because he’s scared.” Because he knows these guys, they’re the ones who could beat me.

Laci (02:00:03):

That’s right. And he needs fear to live. He lives on fear. So if you go to therapy and get rid of your fear, you’re really fucking up his game. And also we need him in the Baron’s bin specifically because he likes to go and stare at the weird leaf water and then visualize his dad. So that’s what he goes and does. I’m pretty sure.

Matt (02:00:19):

I’m not as pro therapy as Laci for the record. I just want everyone to know that. That’s

Laci (02:00:23):

Because he’s so fucking edgy and cool.

Matt (02:00:25):

Yeah. I say, “You know what’s better than therapy friends?”

Laci (02:00:27):

And fucking just fucking bitches.

Matt (02:00:31):

Then

Laci (02:00:31):

What

Matt (02:00:32):

Happens?

Laci (02:00:33):

Fuck you. All right. Well, I guess Eddie enters the town and what does happen? He needs to go to the pharmacist.

Matt (02:00:43):

He

Laci (02:00:43):

Also- No, he just looks over and he sees the pharmacy, I believe. Mr.

Matt (02:00:47):

Cabbie, stop. I got to go in there. I thought he

Laci (02:00:50):

Got a refill though. He gets a refill there.

Matt (02:00:52):

Oh, he does. Yeah. He

Laci (02:00:53):

Does. He just needs to go to the pharmacist. Just happens to be the same one. And the current pharmacist yells back to granddaddy and he’s like, “Oh my God, they can’t be Mr. Keen.” He has a flashback to the one and only time an adult tried to tell him what his mom is and that he’s taking a placebo medicine, he doesn’t really need it. He just wants to finally go, “I finally get it. Let me thank this man.” And he’s senile and asking for tobacco or Stogies. He’s not there. He’s not all there. Has this moment of clarity and seems to remember Eddie and it means a lot to him to even have been remembered. And then of course, Pennywise has to go and fuck it all up by nah. Something sweet didn’t just happen on a clown monster.

Matt (02:01:40):

Turns into a monster net. He’s like, “Mr. Keen.” Don’t do that. Flip of me.

Laci (02:01:44):

Mr. Key, why are you calling him Mr. King? Don’t be a zombie hand, Mr. Keen. No.

Matt (02:01:49):

Beacon.

Laci (02:01:51):

Okay. Well, now Bev’s got to do her thing and this one always has creeped me out. This is the most effective one for me in the entire series is when she sees a perfectly normal looking building that is her old house and it looks like it’s got some paint on it. And weirdly, I only remember Beverly occupying this entire building, but it seems to now be an apartment for three people. I

Matt (02:02:12):

Think it always was the case.

Laci (02:02:14):

All right. And she sees Marsh on the door so she rings the bell and a delightful British lady comes and answers the door and asks her in for a spot of tea and immediately tells her like, “Go brush your teeth, bitch. Okay, you need to go wash up. You smell like the road.” And that’s just so Bev can go get a look at the plumbing. It’s her favorite. She loves the sink.

Matt (02:02:40):

I think it’s really effective the way this is done where she goes into the bathroom, she turns on the water. I don’t even remember if there’s a cut. She just suddenly seems to zone out. She hears Mrs. Kirsch calling her, opens her eyes, the sink is

Laci (02:02:52):

Now full. The thing is full. Yes, yes. It’s a great way to do a time jump. You fall asleep in there, dairy. So now Beverly’s on her back foot like, “Oh fuck, I’m being weird. I better go out there and not be weird.” And all of a sudden you realize, you know what, something’s not quite right because the old lady just houses that fucking tea, just slurps it up and then turns into the scariest, oldest, fucking most decrepit thing. Fucking loving looks so good. Of me. It’s very shining. It’s fucking

Matt (02:03:21):

Incredible.

Laci (02:03:21):

It’s

Matt (02:03:22):

So much better than the new one. In

Laci (02:03:23):

My head though, she gets cornered and that must be in the new one because I did not finish it.

Matt (02:03:27):

She gets stuck. The new one goes on and on and

Laci (02:03:29):

On. Right. And the old lady turns into a lot of stuff and moves fast and it does all the stupid tricks of the time. This is so much better. And I like that she can just get out of there. It makes this movie so easy to watch. You’ve got the creepiness, you’ve got the sadness, but they’re out of there like that. It’s not like, are they going to grab my foot? I fucking hate that, Matt. Can I just say right now, no one should ever, ever get to successfully grab a foot while chasing someone up a ladder or out of a pool or any of that. You can hint that this is what you’re trying to do, but I do not want it.

Matt (02:04:02):

Some things you shouldn’t show on film.

Laci (02:04:05):

I just don’t want it to actually be successful ever again because it’s hard to get out on my brain. Anyway. So now the Beverly’s having like what I’m seeing is not real and rushes out of the house, shuts the door and realizes, oh my fucking God, this house has been abandoned and dilapidated. How did I do that? How did I go in there?

Matt (02:04:26):

Something’s not wrong.

Laci (02:04:28):

I feel like this might be an it house.

Matt (02:04:31):

You know what? This movie makes the change from the book that in the book, all of this happens after the Chinese restaurant. So they meet at the Chinese restaurant and Mike’s like, “I want everybody to now go your separate ways and I want you to try to trigger something scary happening.”

Laci (02:04:43):

Oh, okay.

Matt (02:04:44):

It’s so much better that they don’t have all the information.

Laci (02:04:48):

Oh wait, what do you mean?

Matt (02:04:50):

That each of them has their scary encounter with anyways before they have reconnected.

Laci (02:04:55):

Right. And again, with my metaphor, your biggest fears and scariest moments and like feeling just completely destroyed happen in the first couple of therapy sessions. I mean, it’s so much work.

Matt (02:05:09):

We briefly check in with Audra back in England. That is

Laci (02:05:11):

Rolling his eyes at me so hard with this metaphor.

Matt (02:05:14):

Just a shill for big therapy.

Laci (02:05:16):

I’m not a shell. I’m a believer. I’m

Matt (02:05:18):

Not a shell.

Laci (02:05:19):

I’m not a shell.

Matt (02:05:20):

We briefly check in with Audra. She’s in Heathstood Singland and she’s meeting with the director of the movie. His name is Greco and he’s a real slime ball and he’s like, “Listen, Audra, I’m your friend, but I don’t want to turn into any … You don’t want me as an enemy.”

Laci (02:05:35):

You don’t want to ever, never have lunch in this town again, do you,

Matt (02:05:38):

Audra? And that’s what will happen if you leave my picture.

Laci (02:05:42):

Because you’re worried about your dead husband.

Matt (02:05:45):

And it’s just like we get a quick glimpse at the mundane, economically motivated evil that exists totally outside of clowns, killer clowns. But just, yeah, I’m a really good friend. I will instantly turn into a fucking enemy who wants to crush you like a grasshopper if you mean that I lose a little bit of money.

Laci (02:06:03):

Well, you figure out who your friends are when you need to do something that’s going to be really fucking inconvenient for them. Or how strong are these relationships when you have a real crisis? Are they just calling you crazy or they’re going to like, “Fly free, fly free.” I think that by far the sweetest departure is Eddie’s because his business partner, I mean, God damn it, I would come all over myself just to have a business partner that’s like, “I got a boss.” No, I completed your sentence because I knew what you were going to say because I’ve got it boss. We’re going to miss you and it’s all under control. And when you get out and you’re going to the train, I’m going to have a little tear and I’m going to be waving at you boss because I do miss you. I actually love you.

Matt (02:06:41):

I never do that for you. I do that all the time for you.

Laci (02:06:44):

An employee though, to be that invested in to know that shit like that, but you’re not trying to replace me and take my book of business? Oh, my heart warms.

Matt (02:06:55):

Chinese restaurant reunion.

Laci (02:06:57):

Man, does that food look good?

Matt (02:07:01):

It stretches credulity that Maine, that this small town in Maine has a Chinese restaurant, this exquisite, but it’s there. And I think every time I’ve eaten Chinese food since I read the book, I’ve been chasing the experience of this Chinese restaurant. It just seems so great. They each go in one by one, “Oh, hey, here comes Trouble Richie .” And then Bev comes in and she faints and then she revives and she kisses Richie on the lips. She hugs Ben and it’s very sweet. She says, “I’m so proud of you. ” And then she sees Bill and she texts Avery Wolfs again.

Laci (02:07:36):

My heart burns up, burns all over your face. And

Matt (02:07:39):

They’re like, “All right guys, can we start trauma dumping on each other?” And then somebody’s like, “Can we have fun and talk and drink and eat instead?”

Laci (02:07:45):

Richie, that’s all Richie wants to do. And

Matt (02:07:46):

They’re like, “Oh, okay.” It’s a

Laci (02:07:47):

Good time, Charlie.

Matt (02:07:48):

It’s all right.

Laci (02:07:52):

It’s all right.

Matt (02:07:53):

Good filmmaking, good pacing to know you need this. You need a little bit. You need to come down.

Laci (02:07:59):

Well, and you need to know that they can enjoy each other. And there’s a version of them where they’re light and uninhibited by all of their shit they’re not sharing with people and deep, dark fears and surrounding themselves with toxic people on accident. It’s just like, I feel like Bev has never been lighter than how she is at this dinner. I want to be Beverly Marsh. I keep saying that. I have a bearded man, so I’m close.

Matt (02:08:25):

You want to be Beverly Marsh? I

Laci (02:08:27):

Said that two days ago, but I know we started recording this two days ago, so you’re probably forgetting. Everybody wants to be the leader of the losers.

Matt (02:08:35):

Yeah, I know. And one time- The

Laci (02:08:36):

Sexy leader of the … Fuck yeah.

Matt (02:08:37):

You think she’s the leader?

Laci (02:08:39):

I think she gets to kiss a lot of people.

Matt (02:08:41):

Oh, that’s what a leader does.

Laci (02:08:44):

I don’t know. I think it’s nice that they share, but on her terms.

Matt (02:08:48):

Yeah. Mike’s like, “Listen, all right, let’s get to business. You’ve all, I consider your promises fulfilled. You can leave at any moment.” Hey, you’re free to leave at any time. I

Laci (02:08:56):

Believe him.

Matt (02:08:58):

Yes, but it’s not actually a choice. It’s like having in the woods. It’s like we think these are free choices, but they’re not. We’re not allowed to use-

Laci (02:09:04):

Well, it’s not Mike’s choice to not say that.

Matt (02:09:07):

That’s right. He’s a

Laci (02:09:07):

Nice little sweetie.

Matt (02:09:08):

So they get their fortune cookies and wouldn’t you know what these fortune cookies are fucked up. We got cockroaches coming out of the fortune cookies. I love one is just a hermit crab. I’d

Laci (02:09:17):

Be like,

Matt (02:09:18):

Yay. I know. I got the good one. I might keep this. A bird embryo, that’s fucking cool.

Laci (02:09:23):

It’s adorable.

Matt (02:09:24):

Henry Bowers, we see him. He’s at Arkham Asylum. He’s at a home for the criminally insane.

Laci (02:09:29):

He doesn’t even get a room or a hall. He’s in the fucking hall. It’s well observed though. I think maybe Stephen King has done some time at one of these or know someone that did because these are some really specific decisions. I mean, he seems affected by what it is people actually do with people who are struggling mentally. Maybe he was afraid to say he was having trouble mentally. Don’t ever have your hair turn white all at once. They freak out.

Matt (02:09:55):

He sees Pennywise in the moon. Henry, Henry, you got to go kill them, Henry. Come on. And then Belch is a corpse, but he’s like, “Hey, Henry, it’s me, your old friend Belch. Belch. Oh my God, I can’t believe it. I’m going to help you escape tonight, Henry.” And he’s like, “But Belch, Kootz is on guard tonight.” So Belch gives Henry a knife and they approach Dean Koontz and Pennywise turns into a dog clown and attacks

Laci (02:10:17):

Koontz. Which could have been adorable.

Matt (02:10:20):

And then everybody’s at the library. You know how you always said that being at work after hours is fun? I would love to be in a library when it’s closed. Oh, the stuff you could get into.

Laci (02:10:30):

Well, especially that library’s awesome with the big thing in the middle and there’s an upstairs and the … Yeah.

Matt (02:10:35):

Open the card catalog.

Laci (02:10:36):

Okay. I mean, it’s just another moment where they get to have a little bit of a reprieve. They’re enjoying each other, but now it’s time to get serious and learn that Stan died and now they’re all genuinely upset. It’s just like they keep trying to talk themselves into like, “I feel better now. I feel bad. I can leave.” No, this was enough.

Matt (02:10:55):

Richie’s doing his bits. They’re so funny.

Laci (02:10:57):

Well, and just being around each other, just talking it out has made all of them this pain lift, this feeling like, “Yeah, I could leave. I think this was a good little dose.” And then the reality hits with another phone call, Matt, the phone is your psyche returning and saying, “No, people die. Someone’s dead. Handle your shit.”

Matt (02:11:22):

Stan’s dad. Stan’s

Laci (02:11:23):

Dead.

Matt (02:11:24):

He’s also in this refrigerator. It could be

Laci (02:11:25):

You. And I’d like to point out there are not enough beers for everybody in this refrigerator. No,

Matt (02:11:29):

Somebody’s going to have to go to the store.

Laci (02:11:30):

Or drink Stan’s head.

Matt (02:11:34):

Bill remembers Stan, we all know Stan was the most useless of all of us, but I remember back in the day, he was the last one to see Pennywise. He saw it while he was watching birds. He told me about it. He told me he had looked into Pennywise’s deadlines, and he said, “I wanted to be there in the deadlights.” Because

Laci (02:11:51):

The people who do not go to therapy, it’s easier if they just give in.

(02:11:57):

It’s not easier. I’m just like that. I’m not saying I think these things. I’m saying that’s what the movie is telling us, Matt. I think it’s very realistic for them to have these ebbs and flows of like, “We’re enjoying each other. Oh my God, tell us what you remember. Oh, this is so important, but we’re going to go, right? Let’s get to the airport. Let’s get the fuck out of here.” And then something big happens. Okay, we’re all back in again. Maybe we don’t go in the sewer though. That’s a step too far and then something bad happens and let’s go in the story. I mean, it’s very like that’s the whole thing as their adult says, no, yes, no, yes. Well,

Matt (02:12:30):

Yeah and it’s like what people have a tendency to do. It’s like, well, you’ve made the whole trip to get there.

Laci (02:12:36):

What do they have the tendency to do, Matt?

Matt (02:12:38):

To do half measures, what?

Laci (02:12:39):

When they go to therapy? Is this kind of what

Matt (02:12:42):

It’s like? In light.

Laci (02:12:43):

Though for sure. What kind of things? On my side.

Matt (02:12:47):

Mike is downloading some history to all of them and dairy, it’s the dairy disease. Atrocities happen every 30 years. Henry Bowers was in his goons were attacking Beverly and Mr. Ross across the street didn’t intervene. He went inside to try to forget about it. And then Mike’s also like, “Hey, have you all noticed that you’re all super successful, unusually successful?” And they’re like, “Huh, you’re right. Oh, okay. I feel kind of worried about that. ” But that’s why this whole book is about America. None of us deserves our success. It’s all fucking random and it’s not based on any merit. It’s based on total accidents. We cut away to Audra who has arrived in town. “Hello, where’s Danny? “And then she gets skidnapped by Pennywise immediately.

Laci (02:13:29):

Very easy. She’s nothing.

Matt (02:13:32):

Then we go back to the losers where Ben is giving a very sexual massage to Bev.

Laci (02:13:35):

And she’s eating out of his hand

Matt (02:13:37):

As

Laci (02:13:37):

Though he’s feeding a squirrel. It’s very hot.

Matt (02:13:40):

And Richie’s like, ” All right guys, I’m out of here. I’m leav. “And they’re like, ” Richie, you can’t leave, please.

Laci (02:13:47):

“And then something else big and scary happens and it reinvigorates Richie. All right, Mike almost dies. So they keep talking Richie into it enough and he’s finally like, ” I’m cold. “I love that Beverly says she’s cold and he’s like, ” Me too. ” me a blanket. They’re smart. They know they should go in numbers, but if they’re really smart, they do each thing in three. It’s not three go to alone. Just one room counts as alone. In fact, you guys should be peeing and pooping in tandem. All right. So what do you know it? Crazy shit’s going to happen.

(02:14:20):

I remembered this going on and on and I must be conflating it with the remake because Bowers attacks Mike with a knife, ends up stabbing him and hurts him very badly, but doesn’t kill him. And then in the tussle with Eddie where Eddie’s like, ” Don’t do it. No. “And he’s pulling Bowers up and down and up and down. And I’m like, ” You know what else goes up and down and up and down, Eddie? Stabs to Mike. What are you doing? “Instantly. It’s actually kind of rare to die from one stab. I just want you to know that audience, but don’t go trying it. And that’s the thing. That’s the thing. That really makes Richie think, okay, maybe I will go to the sewer. And then also there’s these other things that are happening to each of them while they’re in their rooms, the other two guys.

Matt (02:15:06):

Ben is joined by Beverly and she’s like, ” I always wanted to thank the boat. “I was like, ” Really, you dude? “And they kiss and then she turns into penny wise.

Laci (02:15:14):

They kiss so weird though. The kissing is almost upsetting how violent it is. So that’s your cue. That’s not Bev.

Matt (02:15:23):

Laci, I think it’s a normal kiss and you just saw it as violent because you see all kisses as violence.

Laci (02:15:27):

Not the ones that they do outside the hospital. Wait, what the fuck am I even arguing that

Matt (02:15:31):

For?

Laci (02:15:31):

Of course. All right. I don’t remember though what happens to Eddie when he’s alone. Does anything happen

Matt (02:15:37):

Then? Nothing. He brushes his teeth.

Laci (02:15:38):

Good for him.

Matt (02:15:40):

And then it’s the next morning and I like the scene with Ben and Bev where they’re hanging out and they’re just hanging out. Hey, our friends was dead or something and she’s like, ” Hey Ben, I’ve always wanted to thank the poet. “He’s like, ” No, no, no, no,

Laci (02:15:53):

No. “No, it’s more organic than that. He says something to her that is very just sweet and she’s like, ” You have the heart of the poet. “And then she realizes,” Oh, fuck it’s you. “That way makes more sense. She wasn’t thinking all the time. Who sent me this letter?

Matt (02:16:08):

Sometimes I shorten things for comic effect.

Laci (02:16:10):

But what you said was not funny or true.

Matt (02:16:13):

Well, but John Ritter’s funny because- Certainly

Laci (02:16:15):

Not funny now.

Matt (02:16:16):

He reacts very big when she starts,” Oh, poetry. Who was you?

Laci (02:16:25):

I’m not kissing a clown. Damn it, Befish are you in there? “And he opens her mouth and checks out her little hangy ball.

Matt (02:16:32):

Bev, what’s your favorite song? And don’t you say do, do, do, do, do, do. I like how easily they cover up Henry being dead. John Ritter’s just like, ” Close the door, turn the TV on.

Laci (02:16:43):

“To be fair, that’s a hotel with four rooms. I don’t think they get a lot of deaths there.

Matt (02:16:48):

So the remaining five go to the sewer because Mike is in the hospital, can’t join them. I’ve always found it a little odd that Mike doesn’t go. Stephen King, who made this decision is like Mike is not going to join them on the final confrontation. I

Laci (02:17:02):

Thought it just meant that Mike had done his time. Mike-

Matt (02:17:06):

Yeah, I know that easy. He put in

Laci (02:17:08):

His time and it was making him weak and it targeted him in a way that it did in the others. I think it’s fair. And maybe that actor had a bad name. Oh, you’re saying it doesn’t also in the

Matt (02:17:18):

Book. It’s in the book. Yeah. It’s just that to me it felt like they all need to physically be there, that it’s important.

Laci (02:17:23):

But Stan already wasn’t.

Matt (02:17:25):

Yeah, but it’s just Stan. So they go back down to the sewer, Bill finds Audra’s purse. This is Audra’s purse. Look, her driver’s license is definitely her own audra.

Laci (02:17:34):

And he lets anxiety and panic take over like he would normally before therapy. And he runs off. He runs off without his tools without any fucking plan. He just responds, just fight or flight. And he immediately trips and then goes into rocking back and forth infant mode. That’s because he just needs to take a minute, use your tools. And all the group finds him and they talk him through it and like, look, doing this is not going to help. Panicking is not going to help. Get your fucking shit together, get your wife’s purse and we’re going to go find a clown.

Matt (02:18:08):

And they do it kind of easily actually. Follow the litle sailboat.

Laci (02:18:12):

I mean, it’s not hard to find a therapist. You just got to get that.

Matt (02:18:17):

So they follow the sailboat and I like that it takes them to a bone door and they’re

Laci (02:18:22):

Like- I know. I was like, when did the goonies happen in here? I don’t remember that at all. I’m like, this bone door is adorable.

Matt (02:18:28):

This takes us to Pirates of the Caribbean.

Laci (02:18:30):

Yay. Yeah, with the little fake rocks and little baby skulls. It’s just for children to die on. It’s adorable.

Matt (02:18:39):

And Eddie’s like, “Before we go through that bone door, I have to confession. I’m a virgin because I could never sleep with someone I didn’t love and I only ever loved you. “

Laci (02:18:47):

And then he looks really long at Bev and she’s like, “All right, well let’s go on the fucking bone door.”

Matt (02:18:51):

And by you guys I meant …

Laci (02:18:54):

And Bev?

Matt (02:18:55):

We’ve been having

Laci (02:18:57):

A lot of contact since you got here.

Matt (02:18:59):

Well, thank you for that. So they go through the bone door and- And

Laci (02:19:04):

He’s like, “Fuck it. I’m going to kill myself now. I already admitted the thing out there and Bev was not picking up what I was putting down. This is that or yeah. Oh no, don’t kill me. “

Matt (02:19:15):

They see Audra in the spiderweb cocoon, really cool. And then its true form is a spider and I think this looks fucking awesome. It does. The stop motion form of the spider and the practical puppet both look fucking cool. It was like thinking when I gave this movie a bad review seven years ago. You thinking

Laci (02:19:33):

With your dick.

Matt (02:19:34):

I was. Beverly shoots a silver bullet at it, but it just bounces off.

Laci (02:19:38):

It goes right past him. She misses, the first one is she misses.

Matt (02:19:41):

Well, and then she shoots another, it bounces off and then Bill is staring into the deadlights and then Richie and Banner staring into the deadlights and Eddie’s like, “I got to do something.” And then, “What did I do 30 years ago? This is battery acid, you bastard?” “This is battery ostrich you best dude. It doesn’t work this time. The spider picks him up and eats him. Or no, no, he says the cool “I believe in Santa Claus. I believe in the Easter bunny and the toothbairy, but I don’t believe in you. “

Laci (02:20:07):

And that distracts him long enough for Bev to recover the earring, which she was not leaving Eddie. Eddie thinks that that’s what she’s doing, but she comes right back.

Matt (02:20:16):

Anne allows the others to snap out of it and Bev shoots the silver bullet, shoots it into the spiders open pores. This time her aim is true and this is the killing blow. The spider dies, Eddie dies on the ground and then they’re like, “Hey, let’s take just hack it to pieces just to make sure.” And I love this. They’re literally just going to town on this fucking spider and they ritualistically take its heart out and I feel like they’re about to

Laci (02:20:46):

Win. They put it up in the air. It’s like,

Matt (02:20:48):

Well,

Laci (02:20:48):

I got this heart.

Matt (02:20:49):

They start chanting.

Laci (02:20:50):

Fuck I

Matt (02:20:50):

Do with this. No, I love that the way they ultimately defeat the spider is to kick it to death. But you got to burn it. It’s like it’s good fellas.

Laci (02:20:58):

Right. Oh, or it’s the remake, right? Because the baseball bat.

Matt (02:21:03):

But it dies and the deadlights die and all in all kind of interesting summer.

Laci (02:21:07):

And then they do a little wrap up and everything seems to be going really well except for the heartbreaking tragedy of Bill still being in dairy and can’t figure out … Some therapy just takes a little longer. You want to know why? Because the roots of his trauma are far deeper. All right, fine.

Matt (02:21:24):

Audra though is catatonic because she went into the deadlights

Laci (02:21:29):

And stayed there for a very long time in a cocoon.

Matt (02:21:31):

But time is moving forward and I’ve always loved that like we’re already forgetting. I’m struggling to even remember Bill’s name, but I still am drawn to him. We see each other every day. But Ben and Beverly, they’re off getting married despite not knowing each other. Richie’s starring in a movie alongside a guy who looks just like Eddie.

Laci (02:21:48):

I don’t under … Oh, Eddie. I thought they said it looks just like Richie. Yay. I like

Matt (02:21:54):

All he loves

Laci (02:21:55):

This stuff.

Matt (02:21:56):

Bill is the last one to remain behind in dairy, but then he gets an idea. Audra, maybe I can fix you. Maybe I can put you on Hi Host Silver. And they go down the fucking street.

Laci (02:22:09):

Craziest mountain street ever.

Matt (02:22:11):

And she comes out and she’s like, “Bill, what are we doing here? Hello.” And then she kisses him and then they stop traffic and then people get out of their cars and they’re like, “Is that local legend Stephen King and a lady on a bike?”

Laci (02:22:24):

Rich people, am I right?

Matt (02:22:26):

That’s the end of the movie.

Laci (02:22:27):

Yeah,

Matt (02:22:30):

Good ending.

Laci (02:22:31):

I think so. Quite the spectacle.

Matt (02:22:50):

All right. Final thoughts. Torture me. Final thoughts on It, 1990.

Laci (02:22:55):

I was always right for loving this movie. I was a smart child, smart teen, smart adult, band, five stars.

Matt (02:23:01):

Damn. Yeah, I really like it. I think it’s very flawed. I think that it being on TV is a virtue and a deficit. I would’ve liked to see Tommy Lee Wallace getting to do this on a theatrical budget and without the restrictions of television, I think he’s a talented enough filmmaker to make it work and would understand that you need to make this more of a drama because the book is a drama. The book is a drama that is interrupted by horror, but it is still about these people’s lives and the length, the 1200 pages is because you two have to live with them and experience what they experience. Three and a half stars and I think that it would be higher if the second part, I think the second part is a pretty big step down from the first part. I just think those kids are so charming.

(02:23:51):

A lot of charm is lost when you get to them as adults. I

Laci (02:23:54):

Find the adults even charming.

Matt (02:23:56):

Really?Not

Laci (02:23:57):

More charming her, but as they’re equal to me.

Matt (02:24:01):

But good time.

Laci (02:24:03):

All right.

Matt (02:24:03):

Longest episode ever.

Laci (02:24:04):

I feel like I might go to the deadlights.

Matt (02:24:07):

So that’s it. Goodbye.

Laci (02:24:10):

Okay. I love you. Goodbye.